Hi Eddie. Try this site. www.oiltest.com.au They are based in singleton nsw, appear to be reasonably priced $20 to $40 with 24 hour turnaround for test and may take a lot of the guess work out of your gearbox problem. Good luck Bill.
when i bought my dual cab from john ford he
informed me he had replaced the original oil with a castrol fully synthetic
which he claimed was a life time product oil which was replaced at 100000 k
service by mullers on their advice with another synthetic oil the vehicle
has travelled about 30000k since. the advice from mullers is to change the
tansmisson oils at each 100000k, listen for any strange noises and if heard get
the box checked IMMEDIATLY,they also stated that the quality of some of the
original gearbox components left a bit to be desired when manufactured, the
other statement was this that the gear boxes run at a high operating temperature
and coupled with australias summer heat and if a higher performance motor
has been installed that oil failure can occur by the oil exceeding its
temperature operating limits which can be overcome by fitting a oil cooler to
the gearbox with a circulating pump and a heat exchanger, so is any one
going to shoot or salute this statement.
it would be interesting to find out the temperature
of a working tranmission under different conditions and the technical
specifications of the oils
to all members a safe and happy new
year
bob dale
After a lifetime in engineering, I eventually learned that all too often there is no definitive answer to a particular question. This realization comes after observing that solutions are often reached by employing the best compromise, the best estimate based on expert knowledge, or (and I hate to admit this) the best guess. This is called guesstimation and is a guess based on accumulated expert knowledge but is a guess nonetheless.
I have been revisiting information collected on the many oil discussions over the years on the several Syncro groups and no clear answer emerges. In cases like is, then only arbiter is actual results – what happens in service. I will try to summarize this and post it.
One thing that I should have mentioned about the Syncro is that the crownwheel and pinion are hypoid gears as distinct from straight / spur gears. Hypoid gears have spiral teeth and their meshing action is sliding as opposed to rolling. The hypoid provides a longer contact area but needs an EP (extra pressure) oil.
Les
Hi Les, Bob. The oroginal post of "Dirty gear oil" by Eddie WAS TO address his problem of foreign matter in his newly built gearbox. Hence my reference to an oil analysis company. Somehow the subject turned to "mineral v synthetic" and Eddies problem has been forgotten. Anyway this oil analysis co "oiltest.com.au " may help. Anybody used this service? On the subject mineral v synthetic. Ronnie Schmit the very capable vw gearbox man in Kempsey runs not one but two oil temp gauges on his off road buggies. He says the boxes run 20 deg cooler on synthetic oil under obviously harsh racing conditions. The logic is less friction =less temp =less wear. Synthetic wins. Just my two bobs worth. Happy new year all. Bill.
Synthetic oil does not transfer heat as well as mineral oil. The oil temp guage measures the oil temp, not the gear temp. (Just to add more confusion)
> Bill <marg_bill@westnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Hi Les, Bob. The oroginal post of "Dirty gear oil" by Eddie WAS TO
> address his problem of foreign matter in his newly built gearbox. Hence
> my reference to an oil analysis company. Somehow the subject turned to
> "mineral v synthetic" and Eddies problem has been forgotten. Anyway
> this oil analysis co "oiltest.com.au " may help. Anybody used this
> service? On the subject mineral v synthetic. Ronnie Schmit the very
> capable vw gearbox man in Kempsey runs not one but two oil temp gauges
> on his off road buggies. He says the boxes run 20 deg cooler on
> synthetic oil under obviously harsh racing conditions. The logic is less
> friction =less temp =less wear. Synthetic wins. Just my two bobs worth.
> Happy new year all. Bill.
Bill,
True, the subject has been expanded somewhat but there is rather a lot a stake. Gearbox rebuilds are very expensive and a single rebuild represents such a large slice of the maintenance budget for most of us that we need to take a wide look at the problem.
There can be a lot of reasons why a newly rebuilt gearbox has failed, the choice of oil being only one of them. Diagnosing such a failure is a job that very few gearbox builders are capable of. My original comments were along the lines of there aren’t many workshops that are capable of rebuilding the 094 gearbox correctly and that stands. We minimize the chances of a failed rebuild by staying with the few with an established record in rebuilding the 094.
For a gearbox to fail so soon after a rebuild suggests that the problem lies in the setup, not in the oil. I tossed in oil as an incidental and did not imply that this caused the failure.
Les
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: 06 January 2010 11:41
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re:
Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Hi Les, Bob. The oroginal post of "Dirty gear oil" by Eddie WAS TO address his problem of foreign matter in his newly built gearbox. Hence my reference to an oil analysis company. Somehow the subject turned to "mineral v synthetic" and Eddies problem has been forgotten. Anyway this oil analysis co "oiltest.com. au " may help. Anybody used this service? On the subject mineral v synthetic. Ronnie Schmit the very capable vw gearbox man in Kempsey runs not one but two oil temp gauges on his off road buggies. He says the boxes run 20 deg cooler on synthetic oil under obviously harsh racing conditions. The logic is less friction =less temp =less wear. Synthetic wins. Just my two bobs worth. Happy new year all. Bill.
Here's some very interesting oil testing comparisons, though mostly
synthetic.
https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2457.pdf
An excerpt:
Ford, for example, requires petroleum gear lubes to be changed every
3,000 miles under severe service but waives that requirement for
synthetic gear lubes, extending the service life.
Larry Hamm
plander@optusnet.com.au wrote:
synthetic.
https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2457.pdf
An excerpt:
Ford, for example, requires petroleum gear lubes to be changed every
3,000 miles under severe service but waives that requirement for
synthetic gear lubes, extending the service life.
Larry Hamm
plander@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> Synthetic oil does not transfer heat as well as mineral oil. The oil temp guage measures the oil temp, not the gear temp. (Just to add more confusion)
Gday Bob,
Thanks for the input, I'm happy to salute your statement.
Just a few comments ...
Interesting my owner VAG service docco makes no mention anywhere of periodic/harsh conditions changing of transmission fluids.
Like you, I've been advised to replace transmission/diff fluids at 100,000klm intervals, primarily in the interest of preserving very expensive drivetrain components and recognising Oz harsher operating conditions ... i.e., heat.
For the transmission and front diff, I was recommended and am using "Castrol Syntrax 75W/90 Manual" full synthetic transaxle and manual transmission oil, readily available here in Oz from auto parts stores, usually in 1 litre containers @ under $30 per.
Attached here is the product data pdf file or view it at: http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/8871_Syntrax_75W_90_455704_200907.pdf
If you can believe the data, this fluid suits harsh Oz operating conditions, certainly cold, even more so heat.
Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamination of the synthetic fluid.
Bob, when you say strange noises, I'm unaware of any noise from my tranny for G, 1, 2 or 3rd gear engagements but 4th emits an even/constant tone for usual 4th gear engagement driving. Is this typical or atypical? Problematic?
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: rcdale@bigpond.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:17:32 +1100
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Find out how Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox
Thanks for the input, I'm happy to salute your statement.
Just a few comments ...
Interesting my owner VAG service docco makes no mention anywhere of periodic/harsh conditions changing of transmission fluids.
Like you, I've been advised to replace transmission/diff fluids at 100,000klm intervals, primarily in the interest of preserving very expensive drivetrain components and recognising Oz harsher operating conditions ... i.e., heat.
For the transmission and front diff, I was recommended and am using "Castrol Syntrax 75W/90 Manual" full synthetic transaxle and manual transmission oil, readily available here in Oz from auto parts stores, usually in 1 litre containers @ under $30 per.
Attached here is the product data pdf file or view it at: http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/8871_Syntrax_75W_90_455704_200907.pdf
If you can believe the data, this fluid suits harsh Oz operating conditions, certainly cold, even more so heat.
Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamination of the synthetic fluid.
Bob, when you say strange noises, I'm unaware of any noise from my tranny for G, 1, 2 or 3rd gear engagements but 4th emits an even/constant tone for usual 4th gear engagement driving. Is this typical or atypical? Problematic?
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: rcdale@bigpond.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:17:32 +1100
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
when i bought my dual cab from john ford he informed me he had replaced the original oil with a castrol fully synthetic which he claimed was a life time product oil which was replaced at 100000 k service by mullers on their advice with another synthetic oil the vehicle has travelled about 30000k since. the advice from mullers is to change the tansmisson oils at each 100000k, listen for any strange noises and if heard get the box checked IMMEDIATLY,they also stated that the quality of some of the original gearbox components left a bit to be desired when manufactured, the other statement was this that the gear boxes run at a high operating temperature and coupled with australias summer heat and if a higher performance motor has been installed that oil failure can occur by the oil exceeding its temperature operating limits which can be overcome by fitting a oil cooler to the gearbox with a circulating pump and a heat exchanger, so is any one going to shoot or salute this statement.
it would be interesting to find out the temperature of a working tranmission under different conditions and the technical specifications of the oils
to all members a safe and happy new year
bob dale
Find out how Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox
I run synthetic oil in my dirt bikes and found on a Yamaha T600 it runs about 5 degrees cooler.
Definitely a smarter oil in my books too.
Reiner
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of plander@optusnet.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, 6 January 2010 11:09 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Synthetic oil does not transfer heat as well as mineral oil. The oil temp
guage measures the oil temp, not the gear temp. (Just to add more confusion)
> Bill <marg_bill@westnet.com.au>wrote:
>TO
> Hi Les, Bob. The oroginal post of "Dirty gear oil" by Eddie WAS
> address his problem of foreign matter in his newly built gearbox. HenceAnyway
> my reference to an oil analysis company. Somehow the subject turned to
> "mineral v synthetic" and Eddies problem has been forgotten.
> this oil analysis co "oiltest.com.au " may help. Anybody usedthis
> service? On the subject mineral v synthetic. Ronnie Schmit the very
> capable vw gearbox man in Kempsey runs not one but two oil temp gauges
> on his off road buggies. He says the boxes run 20 deg cooler on
> synthetic oil under obviously harsh racing conditions. The logic is less
> friction =less temp =less wear. Synthetic wins. Just my two bobs worth.
> Happy new year all. Bill.
paul muller said that bearing failure is the
primary start of the problems and as a result of that this destroys the crown
and pinion, at the moment he is on holidays but i have to go to their shop to
get some articals i ordered and i will try to get some more info, at the moment
touch wood the only noise i hear from mine is the tyre noise from the bf
goodridge a/t tyres. it seems to me he may be refering to the pinion
bearing or crush unit as failure of it would allow movement of the pinion
and its relationship to the laping to the crown gear, these are the thoughts of
a electrican treat them as you may.
regards
bob
Larry,
... and the winner is? :-)
For Oz, going by google search, Amsoil loses serious points for local supply source. Looks good all the same.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: Patlar@hughes.net
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:24:25 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Mineral v Synthetic- Was:Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Australia's #1 job site If It Exists, You'll Find it on SEEK
... and the winner is? :-)
For Oz, going by google search, Amsoil loses serious points for local supply source. Looks good all the same.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: Patlar@hughes.net
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 18:24:25 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Mineral v Synthetic- Was:Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Here's some very interesting oil testing comparisons, though mostly
synthetic.
https://www. amsoil.com/ lit/g2457. pdf
An excerpt:
Ford, for example, requires petroleum gear lubes to be changed every
3,000 miles under severe service but waives that requirement for
synthetic gear lubes, extending the service life.
Larry Hamm
plander@optusnet. com.au wrote:
synthetic.
https://www. amsoil.com/ lit/g2457. pdf
An excerpt:
Ford, for example, requires petroleum gear lubes to be changed every
3,000 miles under severe service but waives that requirement for
synthetic gear lubes, extending the service life.
Larry Hamm
plander@optusnet. com.au wrote:
> Synthetic oil does not transfer heat as well as mineral oil. The oil temp guage measures the oil temp, not the gear temp. (Just to add more confusion)
Australia's #1 job site If It Exists, You'll Find it on SEEK
Ken, that oil is a GL5. Not recomended for the gearbox (OK for front diff) as it corrodes the syncrhos. Read your owner's manual.
Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
> previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamination of the(One for Mythbusters.)
> synthetic fluid.
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gday Bob,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the input, I'm happy to salute your statement.
>
> Just a few comments ...
>
>
>
> Interesting my owner VAG service docco makes no mention anywhere of
> periodic/harsh conditions changing of transmission fluids.
>
>
> Like you, I've been advised to replace transmission/diff fluids at
> 100,000klm intervals, primarily in the interest of preserving very
> expensive drivetrain components and recognising Oz harsher operating
> conditions ... i.e., heat.
>
>
>
> For the transmission and front diff, I was recommended and am using
> "Castrol Syntrax 75W/90 Manual" full synthetic transaxle and manual
> transmission oil, readily available here in Oz from auto parts stores,
> usually in 1 litre containers @ under $30 per.
>
> Attached here is the product data pdf file or view it at:
> http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/8871_Syntrax_75W_90_455704_200907.pdf
>
>
>
> If you can believe the data, this fluid suits harsh Oz operating
> conditions, certainly cold, even more so heat.
>
>
>
> Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
> previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamination of the
> synthetic fluid.
>
>
>
> Bob, when you say strange noises, I'm unaware of any noise from my
> tranny for G, 1, 2 or 3rd gear engagements but 4th emits an
> even/constant tone for usual 4th gear engagement driving. Is this
> typical or atypical? Problematic?
>
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: rcdale@bigpond.com
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:17:32 +1100
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> when i bought my dual cab from john ford he informed me he had replaced
> the original oil with a castrol fully synthetic which he claimed was a
> life time product oil which was replaced at 100000 k service by mullers
> on their advice with another synthetic oil the vehicle has travelled
> about 30000k since. the advice from mullers is to change the tansmisson
> oils at each 100000k, listen for any strange noises and if heard get the
> box checked IMMEDIATLY,they also stated that the quality of some of the
> original gearbox components left a bit to be desired when manufactured,
> the other statement was this that the gear boxes run at a high operating
> temperature and coupled with australias summer heat and if a higher
> performance motor has been installed that oil failure can occur by the
> oil exceeding its temperature operating limits which can be overcome by
> fitting a oil cooler to the gearbox with a circulating pump and a heat
> exchanger, so is any one going to shoot or salute this statement.
> it would be interesting to find out the temperature of a working
> tranmission under different conditions and the technical specifications
> of the oils
> to all members a safe and happy new year
> bob dale
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how
> http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/hotmail/article/823454/web-im-for-hotma
> il-is-here
Phill,
Yeah I know about this GL4/GL5 brass thingy, you've raised this here before ... a number of times
That's another for the mythbusters.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: plander@optusnet.com.au
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:11:14 +1100
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Browse profiles for FREE View photos of singles in your area!
Yeah I know about this GL4/GL5 brass thingy, you've raised this here before ... a number of times
That's another for the mythbusters.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: plander@optusnet.com.au
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:11:14 +1100
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Ken, that oil is a GL5. Not recomended for the gearbox (OK for front diff) as it corrodes the syncrhos. Read your owner's manual.
Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
> previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamin ation of the(One for Mythbusters. )
> synthetic fluid.
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail. com> wrote:
>
>
> Gday Bob,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the input, I'm happy to salute your statement.
>
> Just a few comments ...
>
>
>
> Interesting my owner VAG service docco makes no mention anywhere of
> periodic/harsh conditions changing of transmission fluids.
>
>
> Like you, I've been advised to replace transmission/ diff fluids at
> 100,000klm intervals, primarily in the interest of preserving very
> expensive drivetrain components and recognising Oz harsher operating
> conditions ... i.e., heat.
>
>
>
> For the transmission and front diff, I was recommended and am using
> "Castrol Syntrax 75W/90 Manual" full synthetic transaxle and manual
> transmission oil, readily available here in Oz from auto parts stores,
> usually in 1 litre containers @ under $30 per.
>
> Attached here is the product data pdf file or view it at:
> http://www.tds. castrol.com. au/pdf/8871_ Syntrax_75W_ 90_455704_ 200907.pdf
>
>
>
> If you can believe the data, this fluid suits harsh Oz operating
> conditions, certainly cold, even more so heat.
>
>
>
> Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
> previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamin ation of the
> synthetic fluid.
>
>
>
> Bob, when you say strange noises, I'm unaware of any noise from my
> tranny for G, 1, 2 or 3rd gear engagements but 4th emits an
> even/constant tone for usual 4th gear engagement driving. Is this
> typical or atypical? Problematic?
>
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
> From: rcdale@bigpond. com
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:17:32 +1100
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> when i bought my dual cab from john ford he informed me he had replaced
> the original oil with a castrol fully synthetic which he claimed was a
> life time product oil which was replaced at 100000 k service by mullers
> on their advice with another synthetic oil the vehicle has travelled
> about 30000k since. the advice from mullers is to change the tansmisson
> oils at each 100000k, listen for any strange noises and if heard get the
> box checked IMMEDIATLY,they also stated that the quality of some of the
> original gearbox components left a bit to be desired when manufactured,
> the other statement was this that the gear boxes run at a high operating
> temperature and coupled with australias summer heat and if a higher
> performance motor has been installed that oil failure can occur by the
> oil exceeding its temperature operating limits which can be overcome by
> fitting a oil cooler to the gearbox with a circulating pump and a heat
> exchanger, so is any one going to shoot or salute this statement.
> it would be interesting to find out the temperature of a working
> tranmission under different conditions and the technical specifications
> of the oils
> to all members a safe and happy new year
> bob dale
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how
> http://windowslive. ninemsn.com. au/hotmail/ article/823454/ web-im-for- hotma
> il-is-here
Browse profiles for FREE View photos of singles in your area!
I hope you're joking Ken.
That ones well documented.
That ones well documented.
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Phill,
>
> Yeah I know about this GL4/GL5 brass thingy, you've raised this here
> before ... a number of times
>
>
>
> That's another for the mythbusters.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: plander@optusnet.com.au
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:11:14 +1100
> Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken, that oil is a GL5. Not recomended for the gearbox (OK for front
> diff) as it corrodes the syncrhos. Read your owner's manual.
>
> Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
> > previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamination of the
> > synthetic fluid.
>
> (One for Mythbusters.)
>
> > Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gday Bob,
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the input, I'm happy to salute your statement.
> >
> > Just a few comments ...
> >
> >
> >
> > Interesting my owner VAG service docco makes no mention anywhere of
> > periodic/harsh conditions changing of transmission fluids.
> >
> >
> > Like you, I've been advised to replace transmission/diff fluids at
> > 100,000klm intervals, primarily in the interest of preserving very
> > expensive drivetrain components and recognising Oz harsher operating
> > conditions ... i.e., heat.
> >
> >
> >
> > For the transmission and front diff, I was recommended and am using
> > "Castrol Syntrax 75W/90 Manual" full synthetic transaxle and manual
> > transmission oil, readily available here in Oz from auto parts stores,
>
> > usually in 1 litre containers @ under $30 per.
> >
> > Attached here is the product data pdf file or view it at:
> >
> http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/8871_Syntrax_75W_90_455704_200907.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > If you can believe the data, this fluid suits harsh Oz operating
> > conditions, certainly cold, even more so heat.
> >
> >
> >
> > Changing to a synthetic fluid requires a thorough flushout of the
> > previous mineral oil so as to avoid compromise/contamination of the
> > synthetic fluid.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob, when you say strange noises, I'm unaware of any noise from my
> > tranny for G, 1, 2 or 3rd gear engagements but 4th emits an
> > even/constant tone for usual 4th gear engagement driving. Is this
> > typical or atypical? Problematic?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > From: rcdale@bigpond.com
> > Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:17:32 +1100
> > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > when i bought my dual cab from john ford he informed me he had
> replaced
> > the original oil with a castrol fully synthetic which he claimed was a
>
> > life time product oil which was replaced at 100000 k service by
> mullers
> > on their advice with another synthetic oil the vehicle has travelled
> > about 30000k since. the advice from mullers is to change the
> tansmisson
> > oils at each 100000k, listen for any strange noises and if heard get
> the
> > box checked IMMEDIATLY,they also stated that the quality of some of
> the
> > original gearbox components left a bit to be desired when
> manufactured,
> > the other statement was this that the gear boxes run at a high
> operating
> > temperature and coupled with australias summer heat and if a higher
> > performance motor has been installed that oil failure can occur by the
>
> > oil exceeding its temperature operating limits which can be overcome
> by
> > fitting a oil cooler to the gearbox with a circulating pump and a heat
>
> > exchanger, so is any one going to shoot or salute this statement.
> > it would be interesting to find out the temperature of a working
> > tranmission under different conditions and the technical
> specifications
> > of the oils
> > to all members a safe and happy new year
> > bob dale
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how
> >
> http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/hotmail/article/823454/web-im-for-hotma
>
> > il-is-here
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> View photos of singles in your area! Browse profiles for FREE
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
Phill,
Yes, quite a novel contradiction eh.
Doccos say one thing whereas my Syncro tranny rebuilder with a wealth of actual hands on and ongoing rebuilding experience and trained by VAG itself overseas is dismissive of this dictum.
So when push comes to shove and one has to make a decision, as Les says, one goes with actual hands on rebuilding experience along with their views concerning current technology lubricant attributes.
As I said before, even the experts don't agree, I simply have to find one I believe in.
Bit like choosing a doctor eh.
Phill, if ever my tranny is opened up, I'll report back here about their findings ok. Cheers.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: <plander@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, 7 January 2010 7:16 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
[The entire original message is not included]
Yes, quite a novel contradiction eh.
Doccos say one thing whereas my Syncro tranny rebuilder with a wealth of actual hands on and ongoing rebuilding experience and trained by VAG itself overseas is dismissive of this dictum.
So when push comes to shove and one has to make a decision, as Les says, one goes with actual hands on rebuilding experience along with their views concerning current technology lubricant attributes.
As I said before, even the experts don't agree, I simply have to find one I believe in.
Bit like choosing a doctor eh.
Phill, if ever my tranny is opened up, I'll report back here about their findings ok. Cheers.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: <plander@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, 7 January 2010 7:16 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
[The entire original message is not included]
I think I'll believe Volkswagen engineers.
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Phill,
> Yes, quite a novel contradiction eh.
>
> Doccos say one thing whereas my Syncro tranny rebuilder with a wealth of
> actual hands on and ongoing rebuilding experience and trained by VAG
> itself overseas is dismissive of this dictum.
>
> So when push comes to shove and one has to make a decision, as Les says,
> one goes with actual hands on rebuilding experience along with their
> views concerning current technology lubricant attributes.
>
> As I said before, even the experts don't agree, I simply have to find
> one I believe in.
>
> Bit like choosing a doctor eh.
>
> Phill, if ever my tranny is opened up, I'll report back here about their
> findings ok. Cheers.
> Ken
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <plander@optusnet.com.au>
> Sent: Thursday, 7 January 2010 7:16 AM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
>
>
>
> [The entire original message is not included]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
G'day all, I just thought I might put my two bob's worth in [although it cost me a lot more than that to learn from my mistake].
In the middle of a Goulburn winter a few years ago I was having trouble selecting gears on frosty mornings. This resulted in some embarrassing graunches [and it's hard to hide in a Syncro, especially if you're driving]. Castrol Syntrax eased the problem.
Pleased with this new discovery I also poured it in to the transfer case of my 1985 Range Rover as well, on the theory that this modern technology should reduce friction and improve economy.
Bah, Humbug!!
Within a week both vehicles were off the road. The Syncro developed a noisy mainshaft bearing and the Range Rover "failed to proceed" 99 km from home. Luckily the tow-truck driver didn't know his way around Goulburn, which allowed me to direct him the long way home [to qualify for the 'free tow over 100 k's' with NRMA Plus].
The problem with the Rover was a grub screw that had remained faithfully in place for 23 years that suddenly unscrewed, possibly due to the superior penetrating lubricity of synthetic oil. [I love that word]. This left me with a transfer case full of neutrals. It was easy to fix - after I wrestled the heavy transfer case out from underneath the vehicle.
As for the Syncro, it was off to Adrian Muller for a rebuild. Maybe the mainshaft bearing would have failed anyway - but 240 k isn't a lot of miles - I rebuilt a lot of T2 gearboxes with 2 or 3 times that amount of use. The old oil had been clear of metallic particles, and the vehicle had not been abused.
Further research revealed that all the oil can't be drained out of a Syncro when the transaxle is in situ. Although Castrol Syntrax claims to be compatible with mineral oil, a search of the technical literature reveals that this is not recommended. Therefore I suggest that it should only be used after a complete stripdown so that no mixing of the two oils can take place.
I will be installing the fresh engine and transmission in the van shortly, and will probably use synthetic oil [as recommended by Adrian] due to the cold winter climate here in the Southern Tablelands.
Cheers, Roger [Beetle Bayley].
In the middle of a Goulburn winter a few years ago I was having trouble selecting gears on frosty mornings. This resulted in some embarrassing graunches [and it's hard to hide in a Syncro, especially if you're driving]. Castrol Syntrax eased the problem.
Pleased with this new discovery I also poured it in to the transfer case of my 1985 Range Rover as well, on the theory that this modern technology should reduce friction and improve economy.
Bah, Humbug!!
Within a week both vehicles were off the road. The Syncro developed a noisy mainshaft bearing and the Range Rover "failed to proceed" 99 km from home. Luckily the tow-truck driver didn't know his way around Goulburn, which allowed me to direct him the long way home [to qualify for the 'free tow over 100 k's' with NRMA Plus].
The problem with the Rover was a grub screw that had remained faithfully in place for 23 years that suddenly unscrewed, possibly due to the superior penetrating lubricity of synthetic oil. [I love that word]. This left me with a transfer case full of neutrals. It was easy to fix - after I wrestled the heavy transfer case out from underneath the vehicle.
As for the Syncro, it was off to Adrian Muller for a rebuild. Maybe the mainshaft bearing would have failed anyway - but 240 k isn't a lot of miles - I rebuilt a lot of T2 gearboxes with 2 or 3 times that amount of use. The old oil had been clear of metallic particles, and the vehicle had not been abused.
Further research revealed that all the oil can't be drained out of a Syncro when the transaxle is in situ. Although Castrol Syntrax claims to be compatible with mineral oil, a search of the technical literature reveals that this is not recommended. Therefore I suggest that it should only be used after a complete stripdown so that no mixing of the two oils can take place.
I will be installing the fresh engine and transmission in the van shortly, and will probably use synthetic oil [as recommended by Adrian] due to the cold winter climate here in the Southern Tablelands.
Cheers, Roger [Beetle Bayley].
> Further research revealed that all the oil can't be drained out of aYou really need to read that one carefully. It just means that the oil will not have 100% of the new oil properties. (Information from manufacturers websites)
> Syncro when the transaxle is in situ. Although Castrol Syntrax claims to
> be compatible with mineral oil, a search of the technical literature reveals that
> this is not recommended. Therefore I suggest that it should only be used after
> a complete stripdown so that no mixing of the two oils can take place.
>
After all, most of the synthetic oils contain mineral oil.
Gday Roger,
Thanks for your input on this topic albeit seems the stars failed to line up for you that winter eh.
Different to your scenario, I'd not done any prior research on this gear fluid issue. Back at the time I was having a solid shaft installed to my front diff, I simply accepted advice from my installer to change over to Syntrax in my tranny & front diff, he did the changeover himself utilising his own methods. I stood back and watched. Essentially all he changed in my syncro was the same as he'd done to his own. A bit hard for me to argue against that!
All I know about my transaxle is ... it's not the original. A previous owner (not the last) must have changed it, so how many klms it's done or its service history if any, I have no idea.
The syncro has travelled 14000 klms since the Syntrax was put in, I've not had a problem and it is smoother.
Larry Hamm put up the following link concerning an interesting fluids comparison test at https://www. amsoil.com/ lit/g2457. pdf
Did you check it out and if so, did it influence your choice of synthetic oil for your transaxle? What have you/your mechanic decided on?
Lastly, have you considered using synthetic oil as well in your WBX motor?
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: Gullyraker@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 20:04:41 -0500
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger
Thanks for your input on this topic albeit seems the stars failed to line up for you that winter eh.
Different to your scenario, I'd not done any prior research on this gear fluid issue. Back at the time I was having a solid shaft installed to my front diff, I simply accepted advice from my installer to change over to Syntrax in my tranny & front diff, he did the changeover himself utilising his own methods. I stood back and watched. Essentially all he changed in my syncro was the same as he'd done to his own. A bit hard for me to argue against that!
All I know about my transaxle is ... it's not the original. A previous owner (not the last) must have changed it, so how many klms it's done or its service history if any, I have no idea.
The syncro has travelled 14000 klms since the Syntrax was put in, I've not had a problem and it is smoother.
Larry Hamm put up the following link concerning an interesting fluids comparison test at https://www. amsoil.com/ lit/g2457. pdf
Did you check it out and if so, did it influence your choice of synthetic oil for your transaxle? What have you/your mechanic decided on?
Lastly, have you considered using synthetic oil as well in your WBX motor?
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: Gullyraker@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 20:04:41 -0500
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Dirty gear oil/ Oil analysis.
G'day all, I just thought I might put my two bob's worth in [although it cost me a lot more than that to learn from my mistake].
In the middle of a Goulburn winter a few years ago I was having trouble selecting gears on frosty mornings. This resulted in some embarrassing graunches [and it's hard to hide in a Syncro, especially if you're driving]. Castrol Syntrax eased the problem.
Pleased with this new discovery I also poured it in to the transfer case of my 1985 Range Rover as well, on the theory that this modern technology should reduce friction and improve economy.
Bah, Humbug!!
Within a week both vehicles were off the road. The Syncro developed a noisy mainshaft bearing and the Range Rover "failed to proceed" 99 km from home. Luckily the tow-truck driver didn't know his way around Goulburn, which allowed me to direct him the long way home [to qualify for the 'free tow over 100 k's' with NRMA Plus].
The problem with the Rover was a grub screw that had remained faithfully in place for 23 years that suddenly unscrewed, possibly due to the superior penetrating lubricity of synthetic oil. [I love that word]. This left me with a transfer case full of neutrals. It was easy to fix - after I wrestled the heavy transfer case out from underneath the vehicle.
As for the Syncro, it was off to Adrian Muller for a rebuild. Maybe the mainshaft bearing would have failed anyway - but 240 k isn't a lot of miles - I rebuilt a lot of T2 gearboxes with 2 or 3 times that amount of use. The old oil had been clear of metallic particles, and the vehicle had not been abused.
Further research revealed that all the oil can't be drained out of a Syncro when the transaxle is in situ. Although Castrol Syntrax claims to be compatible with mineral oil, a search of the technical literature reveals that this is not recommended. Therefore I suggest that it should only be used after a complete stripdown so that no mixing of the two oils can take place.
I will be installing the fresh engine and transmission in the van shortly, and will probably use synthetic oil [as recommended by Adrian] due to the cold winter climate here in the Southern Tablelands.
Cheers, Roger [Beetle Bayley].
In the middle of a Goulburn winter a few years ago I was having trouble selecting gears on frosty mornings. This resulted in some embarrassing graunches [and it's hard to hide in a Syncro, especially if you're driving]. Castrol Syntrax eased the problem.
Pleased with this new discovery I also poured it in to the transfer case of my 1985 Range Rover as well, on the theory that this modern technology should reduce friction and improve economy.
Bah, Humbug!!
Within a week both vehicles were off the road. The Syncro developed a noisy mainshaft bearing and the Range Rover "failed to proceed" 99 km from home. Luckily the tow-truck driver didn't know his way around Goulburn, which allowed me to direct him the long way home [to qualify for the 'free tow over 100 k's' with NRMA Plus].
The problem with the Rover was a grub screw that had remained faithfully in place for 23 years that suddenly unscrewed, possibly due to the superior penetrating lubricity of synthetic oil. [I love that word]. This left me with a transfer case full of neutrals. It was easy to fix - after I wrestled the heavy transfer case out from underneath the vehicle.
As for the Syncro, it was off to Adrian Muller for a rebuild. Maybe the mainshaft bearing would have failed anyway - but 240 k isn't a lot of miles - I rebuilt a lot of T2 gearboxes with 2 or 3 times that amount of use. The old oil had been clear of metallic particles, and the vehicle had not been abused.
Further research revealed that all the oil can't be drained out of a Syncro when the transaxle is in situ. Although Castrol Syntrax claims to be compatible with mineral oil, a search of the technical literature reveals that this is not recommended. Therefore I suggest that it should only be used after a complete stripdown so that no mixing of the two oils can take place.
I will be installing the fresh engine and transmission in the van shortly, and will probably use synthetic oil [as recommended by Adrian] due to the cold winter climate here in the Southern Tablelands.
Cheers, Roger [Beetle Bayley].
Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger
G'day Ken -
in hindsight, when I was looking to replace the transmission oil I probably didn't do as much research as I could have [i.e. on the forums]. I just checked the reccomendations in the manual, looked at the technical bulletins of major oil suppliers on the web, and wandered around Goulburn to see what was available and read the labels.
There weren't many brands specified for 'transaxles' that met all the criteria.
I was looking for an oil that is available in the most remote locations. When I was young and stupid I drove a T2 through the Channel country in flood. We crossed dozens of creeks. The routine was to walk across first, as we found that the '68 kombi didn't like water deeper than mid-thigh [about 65 cm in my case]. Luckily there wasn't much current, because on one occasion the old girl actually floated briefly. We also learnt to close the fresh-air vents on the dash if we didn't want to sink the ship.
On reaching Broken Hill we spent a day cleaning mud from under the vehicle. It was baked on to the engine and had to be chipped off with a slag-hammer. Wheel bearings were cleaned and repacked with grease. Abrasive grit was cleaned out of the brakes. Suspension, steering and handbrake linkages were checked and lubricated. As a precaution, we drained and replaced the transmission oil.
As most of the group probably know, when hot machinery makes contact with cold water it takes a sudden intake of breath, just as we do. That's why the Syncro is fitted with a diff-breather pipe or 'snorkel'. Unfortunately my old T2 didn't have one - although we fitted one later.
The upshot was that I learnt to use lubricants that are widely available. I steer away from the oil company's own brands - its no good trying to buy Shell if the only servo in town is a BP. Castrol has outlets everywhere.
Something else that I noticed when using synthetic oils in old machinery is that it soon finds any weaknesses in the ancient oil seals.
Having said that, I'll probably still use it in my freshly rebuilt transaxle. Adrian Muller recommended it.
You also asked if I will be using synthetic in the new engine. At this stage I'm thinking I'll stick to good old Valvoline 20/50 "classic" as it has the SG rating recommended for older vehicles. As I understand it the neoprene oil seals fitted to older vehicles have trouble coping with some of the newer specifications. I spent over $200 on the syncro-specific crankshaft pulley oil seal to keep the river out of the oil, so I wouldn't want to see the oil get into the river.
It is possible that all oil-seals now sold are compatible with synthetic oils, and we might be able to use it after a rebuild. My question is, is it really necessary? Synthetic oils are expensive, and probably un-necessary in low-tech, low-revving non-turbo engines without overhead cams. I've only rebuilt three MV engines so far, so I can't claim to be an expert, but I haven't seen one yet with appreciable wear to the bottom end, and cylinder wear is negligible - Steve Muller told me that the barrells rarely need replacement. Most of the problems with the MV are caused by other issues than lubrication.
I can see a whole new string on engine oil coming ...
Cheers, Roger [Beetle Bayley].
in hindsight, when I was looking to replace the transmission oil I probably didn't do as much research as I could have [i.e. on the forums]. I just checked the reccomendations in the manual, looked at the technical bulletins of major oil suppliers on the web, and wandered around Goulburn to see what was available and read the labels.
There weren't many brands specified for 'transaxles' that met all the criteria.
I was looking for an oil that is available in the most remote locations. When I was young and stupid I drove a T2 through the Channel country in flood. We crossed dozens of creeks. The routine was to walk across first, as we found that the '68 kombi didn't like water deeper than mid-thigh [about 65 cm in my case]. Luckily there wasn't much current, because on one occasion the old girl actually floated briefly. We also learnt to close the fresh-air vents on the dash if we didn't want to sink the ship.
On reaching Broken Hill we spent a day cleaning mud from under the vehicle. It was baked on to the engine and had to be chipped off with a slag-hammer. Wheel bearings were cleaned and repacked with grease. Abrasive grit was cleaned out of the brakes. Suspension, steering and handbrake linkages were checked and lubricated. As a precaution, we drained and replaced the transmission oil.
As most of the group probably know, when hot machinery makes contact with cold water it takes a sudden intake of breath, just as we do. That's why the Syncro is fitted with a diff-breather pipe or 'snorkel'. Unfortunately my old T2 didn't have one - although we fitted one later.
The upshot was that I learnt to use lubricants that are widely available. I steer away from the oil company's own brands - its no good trying to buy Shell if the only servo in town is a BP. Castrol has outlets everywhere.
Something else that I noticed when using synthetic oils in old machinery is that it soon finds any weaknesses in the ancient oil seals.
Having said that, I'll probably still use it in my freshly rebuilt transaxle. Adrian Muller recommended it.
You also asked if I will be using synthetic in the new engine. At this stage I'm thinking I'll stick to good old Valvoline 20/50 "classic" as it has the SG rating recommended for older vehicles. As I understand it the neoprene oil seals fitted to older vehicles have trouble coping with some of the newer specifications. I spent over $200 on the syncro-specific crankshaft pulley oil seal to keep the river out of the oil, so I wouldn't want to see the oil get into the river.
It is possible that all oil-seals now sold are compatible with synthetic oils, and we might be able to use it after a rebuild. My question is, is it really necessary? Synthetic oils are expensive, and probably un-necessary in low-tech, low-revving non-turbo engines without overhead cams. I've only rebuilt three MV engines so far, so I can't claim to be an expert, but I haven't seen one yet with appreciable wear to the bottom end, and cylinder wear is negligible - Steve Muller told me that the barrells rarely need replacement. Most of the problems with the MV are caused by other issues than lubrication.
I can see a whole new string on engine oil coming ...
Cheers, Roger [Beetle Bayley].