Gear Ratios

Well, the official numbers are in.  My box 6PA has been opened and the gear count is as follows:
 
4:  48:41 = 0.854
3:  40:49 = 1.225
2:  16:33 = 2.06
1.  9:34   = 3.77
 
This differs from some tables which give 2.6 for third gear in the 6P box.
 
The bad bad bad news is that I need a new crownwheel and pinion - only $1879 for the genuine atricle!!!!!!!!!!
 
I will be talking to Albins early tomorrow.
 
Les
 
 
Les

That is bad news ref crownwheel and pinion.... I assume there'll be some labour on top of that potentially, or are you doing it all yourself?

Just a question - with all the talk of wear and tear on drivetrains with agressive VCs etc, can you be reasonably sure that the repairs currently requiring undertaking are not resultant from a non-decoupled agressive VC, difficult turns on bitumen etc. I am not suggesting it is at all as I simply don't know the engineering well enough, so any commentary on this is welcomed.

Thanks
Mark.

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:

Well, the official numbers are in.  My box 6PA has been opened and the gear count is as follows:
 
4:  48:41 = 0.854
3:  40:49 = 1.225
2:  16:33 = 2.06
1.  9:34   = 3.77
 
This differs from some tables which give 2.6 for third gear in the 6P box.
 
The bad bad bad news is that I need a new crownwheel and pinion - only $1879 for the genuine atricle!!!!!!!!!!
 
I will be talking to Albins early tomorrow.
 
Les
 
 



--
Mark Kofahl
Solutions Outsourced Pty Ltd
Main: 1300 33 1000
Direct: 02 9375 2747
Mobile: 0419 275 259
Skype: markkofahl

www.solutionsoutsourced.com.au
www.siteflex.com.au

16 View Street, Camden, NSW, 2570
PO Box 658, Camden, NSW, 2570




=======================================
This e-mail, including all attachments, may be confidential or privileged. Confidentiality or privilege is not waived or lost because this email has been sent to you in error. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email is prohibited. If you have received it in error please notify the sender immediately by reply email and destroy all copies of this email and any attachments. All liability for direct and indirect loss arising from this email and any attachments is hereby disclaimed to the extent permitted by law. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Solutions Outsourced Pty Ltd.

> Well, the official numbers are in. My box 6PA has been opened and the
> gear count is as follows:
>
> 4: 48:41 = 0.854
> 3: 40:49 = 1.225
> 2: 16:33 = 2.06
> 1. 9:34 = 3.77
>
> This differs from some tables which give 2.6 for third gear in the 6P box.

There is no such gear as a 2.6.
All boxes have the same ratios.





> The bad bad bad news is that I need a new crownwheel and pinion - only
> $1879 for the genuine atricle!!!!!!!!!!
>

This could be because of non genuine or non synthetic oil.
The South African oiling plates should help with crownwheel wear.

Do not use GL5 oil and only fill to 10mm below the filler plug.
hiya,

On 23.04.2008, at 22:28, plander@optusnet.com.au wrote:

> There is no such gear as a 2.6.
> All boxes have the same ratios.

Almost - the 0.85 4th is THE 4th for gasoline engines, diesel
gearboxes have 0.78 instead - rest is the same, everywhere. only
difference is the axle... 6.17 (?), 5.83, 5.43, 4.87 and stuff like
that. unless the gearbox has been modified or fitted with 2wd gears,
they're all the same.

> This could be because of non genuine or non synthetic oil.
> The South African oiling plates should help with crownwheel wear.
>
> Do not use GL5 oil and only fill to 10mm below the filler plug.

over here we generally use TAF-X or some oil by Porsche, forgot the
name...

.martin

--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
> Almost - the 0.85 4th is THE 4th for gasoline engines, diesel
> gearboxes have 0.78 instead - rest is the same, everywhere. only
> difference is the axle... 6.17 (?), 5.83, 5.43, 4.87 and stuff like
> that.

Sorry, I should have said Australian delivered syncros. We do not have diesels here.
All Australian syncros have the 2,1 MV engine.

Phill
On 23.04.2008, at 23:24, plander@optusnet.com.au wrote:

> Sorry, I should have said Australian delivered syncros. We do not
> have diesels here.
> All Australian syncros have the 2,1 MV engine.

Right... really sorry for you :))))

.martin, 1.9SDi :)

--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
> > All Australian syncros have the 2,1 MV engine.
>
> Right... really sorry for you :))))
>
>

So are we!

Phill

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~pjlander/volkswagen_syncro.htm
Phill
 
More haste, less speed.  I will try that again!!   Holding on to a phone, sending an email and reading notes that are upside down on the other side of the desk is never a good idea.  When things lighten up a bit, I will collect the various tables in the one folder and send them to you.  You might recognize some sources.
 
Les
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios



> Well, the official numbers are in. My box 6PA has been opened and the
> gear count is as follows:
>
> 4: 48:41   =   0.854
> 3: 40:49  =   1.225
> 2: 16:33   =   2.06
> 1. 9:34      =   3.77
>
> This differs from some tables which give 1.26 for third gear in the 6P box.

There is no such gear as a 2.6.
All boxes have the same ratios.

> The bad bad bad news is that I need a new crownwheel and pinion - only
> $1879 for the genuine atricle!!!!! !!!!!
>

This could be because of non genuine or non synthetic oil.
The South African oiling plates should help with crownwheel wear.

Do not use GL5 oil and only fill to 10mm below the filler plug.

When things lighten up a
> bit, I will collect the various tables in the one folder and send them
> to you. You might recognize some sources.
>
> Les


Probably a typo error.

If ETKA does not list it as a spare part, then it must not exist.

Phill
Mark,
 
A stiff VC tries to drive the front and rear axles at the same speed.  This is fine for all road driving, where the difference is very small.  It is not fine for low speed, full lock manoeuvres on high grip bitumen.  The load on the drive train is all the way from where the tyres touch the road on the front wheels to where the tyres touch the road on the rear wheels.  The load path is through the tyres, CV joints, diff, low gear set, diff, CV joints and tyres from one end to the other. 
 
I don't think that the aggressive VC caused this.  There were other factors in this vehicle.
 
When I acquired this vehicle, it had different make and size tyres at each end - and an aggressive VC, of course.  I fixed that immediately by going to new BFG's all round and two spares.
 
And, there's more.  It had a vibration that I could not track down.  It was an engine speed vibration but I got no further than that until one afternoon leaving work.  At the end of the access road, I stopped, in low gear and clutch disengaged, and waited for a gap in the traffic.  The gap came, I let out the clutch - and nothing happened.  I soon found that I had a box full of neutrals and no gears. 
 
This could have been a linkage problem but unlikely because I could feel, via the shift lever, each gear slot in.  This left the clutch and most likely the friction plate.  When the engine was dropped and the clutch came out, we found that the centre had torn out of the friction plate.  Moreover, the line of failure showed that there had been serious distortion before the ultimate failure, enough to cause an imbalance and thus vibration.  Further to that, the strain lines showed that the direction of failure was caused by excessive engine power being applied to the friction plate.
 
This is the sort of failure that will occur when someone dumps the clutch at full RPM in low gear.  This is highly entertaining in a WRX but deadly in a vehicle weighing well over two tonnes.  Needless to say, the mystery vibration disappeared when the new clutch went in.
 
This is a long way of saying that this vehicle had been subjected to mistreatment of a nature that would have a bearing on the rear crownwheel and pinion.  The front C&P is insulated from direct shocks like these because the VC acts as a shock absorber.  And, getting back to your original question, the clutch-dumping will impose loads on the C&P that are many hundreds of times more sever than anything that will go through the VC.
 
Les
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios

Les

That is bad news ref crownwheel and pinion.... I assume there'll be some labour on top of that potentially, or are you doing it all yourself?

Just a question - with all the talk of wear and tear on drivetrains with agressive VCs etc, can you be reasonably sure that the repairs currently requiring undertaking are not resultant from a non-decoupled agressive VC, difficult turns on bitumen etc. I am not suggesting it is at all as I simply don't know the engineering well enough, so any commentary on this is welcomed.

Thanks
Mark.

.

Phill,
 
Can you explain the 10mm below plug requirement?  It is presumably dictated by oil slinging, which is what I understand the oiling plates are about - enhancing the oil slinging.
 
Les
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios




>

This could be because of non genuine or non synthetic oil.
The South African oiling plates should help with crownwheel wear.

Do not use GL5 oil and only fill to 10mm below the filler plug.

And another typo!!
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:37 AM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios

Mark,
 
This is a long way of saying that this vehicle had been subjected to mistreatment of a nature that would have a bearing on the rear crownwheel and pinion.  The front C&P is insulated from direct shocks like these because the VC acts as a shock absorber.  And, getting back to your original question, the clutch-dumping will impose loads on the C&P that are many hundreds of times more severe than anything that will go through the VC.
 
Les
.

As far as I know, it was a design error. A workshop bulletin came out to adjust the level to avoid seal damage.



> Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> Phill,
>
> Can you explain the 10mm below plug requirement? It is presumably
> dictated by oil slinging, which is what I understand the oiling plates
> are about - enhancing the oil slinging.
>
> Les
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: plander@optusnet.com.au
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> This could be because of non genuine or non synthetic oil.
> The South African oiling plates should help with crownwheel wear.
>
> Do not use GL5 oil and only fill to 10mm below the filler plug.
>
>
>
I think the 1:26 third gear is another syncro myth like the optional vacuum operated decoupler. It was a cable operated vacuum actuator. (and operated by G gear)

I really only believe documentation from Volkswagen.

Phill



> Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> Phill
>
> More haste, less speed. I will try that again!! Holding on to a
> phone, sending an email and reading notes that are upside down on the
> other side of the desk is never a good idea. When things lighten up a
> bit, I will collect the various tables in the one folder and send them
> to you. You might recognize some sources.
>
> Les
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: plander@optusnet.com.au
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios
>
>
>
>
> > Well, the official numbers are in. My box 6PA has been opened and
> the
> > gear count is as follows:
> >
> > 4: 48:41 = 0.854
> > 3: 40:49 = 1.225
> > 2: 16:33 = 2.06
> > 1. 9:34 = 3.77
> >
> > This differs from some tables which give 1.26 for third gear in the
> 6P box.
>
> There is no such gear as a 2.6.
> All boxes have the same ratios.
>
> > The bad bad bad news is that I need a new crownwheel and pinion -
> only
> > $1879 for the genuine atricle!!!!!!!!!!
> >
>
> This could be because of non genuine or non synthetic oil.
> The South African oiling plates should help with crownwheel wear.
>
> Do not use GL5 oil and only fill to 10mm below the filler plug.
>
>
>
Les

Thank you for taking a moment to explain - that all makes good sense and good to hear your opinion that  dropping the clutch etc places far more strain on driveline than stiff VCs.

Further, on the funny side,  it is difficult to imagine a Syncro as the type of vehicle that would encourage hi-revs and dropped clutch to beat off another flat-four off the line (Eg, WRX!). Still, the previous owner of your Syncro evidently thought otherwise :-(

I always drive our heavy camper at a leisurely pace by default.

Does anyone know if Oettinger WBX6 was ever fitted to Syncro, or if anyone ever fitted the Carrera 3.2 or similar? Maybe that then would encourage some Syncro racing!

Good luck with the refitting of it all and let us know when it is all back on the road.

Regards
Mark.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:

Mark,
 
A stiff VC tries to drive the front and rear axles at the same speed.  This is fine for all road driving, where the difference is very small.  It is not fine for low speed, full lock manoeuvres on high grip bitumen.  The load on the drive train is all the way from where the tyres touch the road on the front wheels to where the tyres touch the road on the rear wheels.  The load path is through the tyres, CV joints, diff, low gear set, diff, CV joints and tyres from one end to the other. 
 
I don't think that the aggressive VC caused this.  There were other factors in this vehicle.
 
When I acquired this vehicle, it had different make and size tyres at each end - and an aggressive VC, of course.  I fixed that immediately by going to new BFG's all round and two spares.
 
And, there's more.  It had a vibration that I could not track down.  It was an engine speed vibration but I got no further than that until one afternoon leaving work.  At the end of the access road, I stopped, in low gear and clutch disengaged, and waited for a gap in the traffic.  The gap came, I let out the clutch - and nothing happened.  I soon found that I had a box full of neutrals and no gears. 
 
This could have been a linkage problem but unlikely because I could feel, via the shift lever, each gear slot in.  This left the clutch and most likely the friction plate.  When the engine was dropped and the clutch came out, we found that the centre had torn out of the friction plate.  Moreover, the line of failure showed that there had been serious distortion before the ultimate failure, enough to cause an imbalance and thus vibration.  Further to that, the strain lines showed that the direction of failure was caused by excessive engine power being applied to the friction plate.
 
This is the sort of failure that will occur when someone dumps the clutch at full RPM in low gear.  This is highly entertaining in a WRX but deadly in a vehicle weighing well over two tonnes.  Needless to say, the mystery vibration disappeared when the new clutch went in.
 
This is a long way of saying that this vehicle had been subjected to mistreatment of a nature that would have a bearing on the rear crownwheel and pinion.  The front C&P is insulated from direct shocks like these because the VC acts as a shock absorber.  And, getting back to your original question, the clutch-dumping will impose loads on the C&P that are many hundreds of times more sever than anything that will go through the VC.
 
Les
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Kofahl
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios

Les

That is bad news ref crownwheel and pinion.... I assume there'll be some labour on top of that potentially, or are you doing it all yourself?

Just a question - with all the talk of wear and tear on drivetrains with agressive VCs etc, can you be reasonably sure that the repairs currently requiring undertaking are not resultant from a non-decoupled agressive VC, difficult turns on bitumen etc. I am not suggesting it is at all as I simply don't know the engineering well enough, so any commentary on this is welcomed.

Thanks
Mark.

.




--
Mark Kofahl
Solutions Outsourced Pty Ltd
Main: 1300 33 1000
Direct: 02 9375 2747
Mobile: 0419 275 259
Skype: markkofahl

www.solutionsoutsourced.com.au
www.siteflex.com.au

16 View Street, Camden, NSW, 2570
PO Box 658, Camden, NSW, 2570




=======================================
This e-mail, including all attachments, may be confidential or privileged. Confidentiality or privilege is not waived or lost because this email has been sent to you in error. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email is prohibited. If you have received it in error please notify the sender immediately by reply email and destroy all copies of this email and any attachments. All liability for direct and indirect loss arising from this email and any attachments is hereby disclaimed to the extent permitted by law. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Solutions Outsourced Pty Ltd.

Mark,
 
I think that the clutch dumping might have been hooning before I bought it and probably not by the original owner, but that's only speculation that I can't prove.
 
The person who can tell you most about Oettinger fitted to Syncro would be Mike Plompen   Mike?
 
Certainly, the SVX 3.3 has been fitted to a number of T3's in the US, along with the odd 2.7 Vortex. 
 
The Subaru H6 will fit into the engine bay and would make a very good engine for the Syncro, not so much for the eventual max BHP but for the very wide spread of power and torque.  I would need to see a power/torque map to be sure, of course, but, at 3.0, it should work very well.
 
Some say that the gearbox won't take it but it comes down to a smooth application of power and avoiding sharp torque inputs.  It is shock loads that kill, not ultimate power.
 
I tried Albins for a new crownwheel and pinion in 5.43.  They could do one but there is currently a three month+ lead-time, so I will have to go with the genuine if I want to get back on the road any time soon.  The alternative is to buy a cheap vehicle as basic wheels in the interim.
 
Les
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios

Les

Thank you for taking a moment to explain - that all makes good sense and good to hear your opinion that  dropping the clutch etc places far more strain on driveline than stiff VCs.

Further, on the funny side,  it is difficult to imagine a Syncro as the type of vehicle that would encourage hi-revs and dropped clutch to beat off another flat-four off the line (Eg, WRX!). Still, the previous owner of your Syncro evidently thought otherwise :-(

I always drive our heavy camper at a leisurely pace by default.

Does anyone know if Oettinger WBX6 was ever fitted to Syncro, or if anyone ever fitted the Carrera 3.2 or similar? Maybe that then would encourage some Syncro racing!

Good luck with the refitting of it all and let us know when it is all back on the road.

Regards
Mark.

.

Hi Les,

 

Buying an ‘old banger’ is what I did about 8-10 years ago when I had to have my gear box done up. Back then there weren’t so many enthusiasts or specialists around (that I knew of, anyway). So I expected the Syncro to be off the road for several weeks at least.  I started looking for an old Mk 1 Golf, but found a 1978 924 Porsche for not much more.  It’s been the best ‘bang for my bucks’ car I’ve ever had, and with the benefit of a few repairs over the years, is still going strong, in the hands of my son now. So good luck, you never know what might turn up.

 

Roger Bell and I are busily planning for the Kombi’s to the Kape (Yorke) trip. (That will be a test for the T5). Are there any other Victorian starters?

 

BRIAN REED

FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES

185 Wingrove St

Fairfield, Vic. 3078

03 9481 5673   0407 319 521


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Friday, 25 April 2008 11:22 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Gear Ratios

 

Mark,

 

I think that the clutch dumping might have been hooning before I bought it and probably not by the original owner, but that's only speculation that I can't prove.

 

The person who can tell you most about Oettinger fitted to Syncro would be Mike Plompen   Mike?

 

Certainly, the SVX 3.3 has been fitted to a number of T3's in the US , along with the odd 2.7 Vortex. 

 

The Subaru H6 will fit into the engine bay and would make a very good engine for the Syncro, not so much for the eventual max BHP but for the very wide spread of power and torque.  I would need to see a power/torque map to be sure, of course, but, at 3.0, it should work very well.

 

Some say that the gearbox won't take it but it comes down to a smooth application of power and avoiding sharp torque inputs.  It is shock loads that kill, not ultimate power.

 

I tried Albins for a new crownwheel and pinion in 5.43.  They could do one but there is currently a three month+ lead-time, so I will have to go with the genuine if I want to get back on the road any time soon.  The alternative is to buy a cheap vehicle as basic wheels in the interim.

 

Les

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Kofahl

Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:53 AM

Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Gear Ratios

 

Les

Thank you for taking a moment to explain - that all makes good sense and good to hear your opinion that  dropping the clutch etc places far more strain on driveline than stiff VCs.

Further, on the funny side,  it is difficult to imagine a Syncro as the type of vehicle that would encourage hi-revs and dropped clutch to beat off another flat-four off the line (Eg, WRX!). Still, the previous owner of your Syncro evidently thought otherwise :-(

I always drive our heavy camper at a leisurely pace by default.

Does anyone know if Oettinger WBX6 was ever fitted to Syncro, or if anyone ever fitted the Carrera 3.2 or similar? Maybe that then would encourage some Syncro racing!

Good luck with the refitting of it all and let us know when it is all back on the road.

Regards
Mark.

.