Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

Hi, I'm new to the forum, and live in Lilydale, Victoria.
For the past 4 years we've driven a '89 2wd Auto 'velle GL. I use it for my work and also trips away(double battery, awning, firewood box inside of roofrack, swivel seats, 30L under car S/Steel water tank, and positraction differential).
There is a 'velle syncro that I know of that's for sale with a rear diff lock. If I bought it and wanted a decoupler installed does it mean the spare wheel can't be stored under the car in it's original location?
I did read somewhere that it needs to be relocated.
I hope to get to meet you people and your steeds soon.
Gerald.

Gerald,

Caravelle Syncros were few and far between in Australia so grab it – it might be a very long time before the next one appears on the market.

Why do you want to install a decoupler? 

There is a lot of wrong information in circulation about decouplers and it might pay to get your thinking sorted out before spending money on something that you might not need.

In any event, a decoupler in no way affects the location of the spare wheel.  The decoupler is in the nose cone of the gearbox.  This is a good example of the nonsense information in circulation.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
Sent: 29 December 2012 09:46
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

Hi, I'm new to the forum, and live in Lilydale, Victoria.
For the past 4 years we've driven a '89 2wd Auto 'velle GL. I use it for my work and also trips away(double battery, awning, firewood box inside of roofrack, swivel seats, 30L under car S/Steel water tank, and positraction differential).
There is a 'velle syncro that I know of that's for sale with a rear diff lock. If I bought it and wanted a decoupler installed does it mean the spare wheel can't be stored under the car in it's original location?
I did read somewhere that it needs to be relocated.
I hope to get to meet you people and your steeds soon.
Gerald.

Thanks, for that Les.
I had thought that the decoupler makes it easier on the mechanics of the car, as most of the kms would be on the sealed.
So, what is a decoupler for and when is it used?
Gerald

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris" <leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> Caravelle Syncros were few and far between in Australia so grab it - it
> might be a very long time before the next one appears on the market.
>
> Why do you want to install a decoupler?
>
> There is a lot of wrong information in circulation about decouplers and it
> might pay to get your thinking sorted out before spending money on something
> that you might not need.
>
> In any event, a decoupler in no way affects the location of the spare wheel.
> The decoupler is in the nose cone of the gearbox. This is a good example of
> the nonsense information in circulation.
>
> Les
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
> Sent: 29 December 2012 09:46
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
>
> Hi, I'm new to the forum, and live in Lilydale, Victoria.
> For the past 4 years we've driven a '89 2wd Auto 'velle GL. I use it for my
> work and also trips away(double battery, awning, firewood box inside of
> roofrack, swivel seats, 30L under car S/Steel water tank, and positraction
> differential).
> There is a 'velle syncro that I know of that's for sale with a rear diff
> lock. If I bought it and wanted a decoupler installed does it mean the spare
> wheel can't be stored under the car in it's original location?
> I did read somewhere that it needs to be relocated.
> I hope to get to meet you people and your steeds soon.
> Gerald.
>

Gerald,

The drive train of the Syncro was designed by Steyr-Puch, an Austrian company with some of the best all wheel drive technological know-how in the world, particularly for serious military vehicles.

The original design of the Syncro drive train incorporated an engageable prop shaft to the front diff.  Whilst this gives good performance on loose gravel and snow, it could not be used on hard dry surfaces because it would destroy the gearbox in short order.

VAG and SP had a think about that and elected to go with a viscous coupling in the front diff in place of the potentially destructive solid drive.  The VC is permanently engaged and permits only a small difference in speed between the front and rear axles.

The end result is it imparts excellent steering and grip characteristics and driver input is needed to avoid gearbox damage.  It has a secondary effect of active to spread braking loads more evenly and becomes a very effective ABS system.  It is not a system designed for off road performance only.  It is system with marked benefits for all driving conditions.  This was the way the drive system was designed from the outset.  It doesn’t need any cotton wool!!

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
Sent: 29 December 2012 11:28
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

Thanks, for that Les.
I had thought that the decoupler makes it easier on the mechanics of the car, as most of the kms would be on the sealed.
So, what is a decoupler for and when is it used?
Gerald

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris" <leslieharris@...> wrote:

>
> Gerald,
>
> Caravelle Syncros were few and far between in Australia so grab it - it
> might be a very long time before the next one appears on the market.
>
> Why do you want to install a decoupler?
>
> There is a lot of wrong information in circulation about decouplers and it
> might pay to get your thinking sorted out before spending money on
something
> that you might not need.
>
> In any event, a decoupler in no way affects the location of the spare
wheel.
> The decoupler is in the nose cone of the gearbox. This is a good example
of
> the nonsense information in circulation.
>
> Les
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
> Sent: 29 December 2012 09:46
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
>
> Hi, I'm new to the forum, and live in Lilydale, Victoria.
> For the past 4 years we've driven a '89 2wd Auto 'velle GL. I use it for
my
> work and also trips away(double battery, awning, firewood box inside of
> roofrack, swivel seats, 30L under car S/Steel water tank, and positraction
> differential).
> There is a 'velle syncro that I know of that's for sale with a rear diff
> lock. If I bought it and wanted a decoupler installed does it mean the
spare
> wheel can't be stored under the car in it's original location?
> I did read somewhere that it needs to be relocated.
> I hope to get to meet you people and your steeds soon.
> Gerald.
>

Thanks, Les
That link is very informative. So I guess the later models(the one I'm looking at is an '89) are more refined and versatile.
G

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris" <leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> The drive train of the Syncro was designed by Steyr-Puch, an Austrian
> company with some of the best all wheel drive technological know-how in the
> world, particularly for serious military vehicles.
>
> The original design of the Syncro drive train incorporated an engageable
> prop shaft to the front diff. Whilst this gives good performance on loose
> gravel and snow, it could not be used on hard dry surfaces because it would
> destroy the gearbox in short order.
>
> VAG and SP had a think about that and elected to go with a viscous coupling
> in the front diff in place of the potentially destructive solid drive. The
> VC is permanently engaged and permits only a small difference in speed
> between the front and rear axles.
>
> The end result is it imparts excellent steering and grip characteristics and
> driver input is needed to avoid gearbox damage. It has a secondary effect
> of active to spread braking loads more evenly and becomes a very effective
> ABS system. It is not a system designed for off road performance only. It
> is system with marked benefits for all driving conditions. This was the way
> the drive system was designed from the outset. It doesn't need any cotton
> wool!!
>
> Les
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
> Sent: 29 December 2012 11:28
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
>
> Thanks, for that Les.
> I had thought that the decoupler makes it easier on the mechanics of the
> car, as most of the kms would be on the sealed.
> So, what is a decoupler for and when is it used?
> Gerald
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com> , "Les Harris"
> <leslieharris@> wrote:
> >
> > Gerald,
> >
> > Caravelle Syncros were few and far between in Australia so grab it - it
> > might be a very long time before the next one appears on the market.
> >
> > Why do you want to install a decoupler?
> >
> > There is a lot of wrong information in circulation about decouplers and it
> > might pay to get your thinking sorted out before spending money on
> something
> > that you might not need.
> >
> > In any event, a decoupler in no way affects the location of the spare
> wheel.
> > The decoupler is in the nose cone of the gearbox. This is a good example
> of
> > the nonsense information in circulation.
> >
> > Les
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
> > Sent: 29 December 2012 09:46
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
> >
> > Hi, I'm new to the forum, and live in Lilydale, Victoria.
> > For the past 4 years we've driven a '89 2wd Auto 'velle GL. I use it for
> my
> > work and also trips away(double battery, awning, firewood box inside of
> > roofrack, swivel seats, 30L under car S/Steel water tank, and positraction
> > differential).
> > There is a 'velle syncro that I know of that's for sale with a rear diff
> > lock. If I bought it and wanted a decoupler installed does it mean the
> spare
> > wheel can't be stored under the car in it's original location?
> > I did read somewhere that it needs to be relocated.
> > I hope to get to meet you people and your steeds soon.
> > Gerald.
> >
>

Gerald,

89 was the first model year sold in Australia.  The solid drive arrangement was retained as an option but probably never went into standard production.

Les

 


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
Sent: 29 December 2012 13:12
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

 

Thanks, Les
That link is very informative. So I guess the later models(the one I'm looking at is an '89) are more refined and versatile.
G
__

Les
Thanks, I'll find out what the one I'm looking at has.
G

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris" <leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> 89 was the first model year sold in Australia. The solid drive arrangement
> was retained as an option but probably never went into standard production.
>
> Les
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
> Sent: 29 December 2012 13:12
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Les
> That link is very informative. So I guess the later models(the one I'm
> looking at is an '89) are more refined and versatile.
> G
> __
>

Gerald,

The solid drive was never sold in Australia and probably never optioned here either because it had very limited application.  As far as I know, it was never a showroom floor model in Europe.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geraldandrobyn
Sent: 29 December 2012 13:38
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

 

Les
Thanks, I'll find out what the one I'm looking at has.
G

I think that it was bought by the Danish army maybe.



> Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> The solid drive was never sold in Australia and probably never optioned
> here
> either because it had very limited application. As far as I know, it
> was
> never a showroom floor model in Europe.
>
> Les
>
> _____
Hi Les,

I have to disagree on the decoupler debate. I have had syncros with and without, and wouldn't drive one without if I had a choice.

There's more power available without front wheels being driven.
There's none of the driveshaft rattle.
There's no binding of front wheels in sharp turns.
All of this is simply loading up the tranny and front cv's and v.c when conditions don't warrant it.

Whilst your arguments are valid, if I want those benefits when needed I just pull the button out.
Otherwise selectable 4wd makes the syncro much more pleasant around town.

Happy new year all.

Mark

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris" <leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> The drive train of the Syncro was designed by Steyr-Puch, an Austrian
> company with some of the best all wheel drive technological know-how in the
> world, particularly for serious military vehicles.
>
> The original design of the Syncro drive train incorporated an engageable
> prop shaft to the front diff. Whilst this gives good performance on loose
> gravel and snow, it could not be used on hard dry surfaces because it would
> destroy the gearbox in short order.
>
> VAG and SP had a think about that and elected to go with a viscous coupling
> in the front diff in place of the potentially destructive solid drive. The
> VC is permanently engaged and permits only a small difference in speed
> between the front and rear axles.
>
> The end result is it imparts excellent steering and grip characteristics and
> driver input is needed to avoid gearbox damage. It has a secondary effect
> of active to spread braking loads more evenly and becomes a very effective
> ABS system. It is not a system designed for off road performance only. It
> is system with marked benefits for all driving conditions. This was the way
> the drive system was designed from the outset. It doesn't need any cotton
> wool!!
>
> Les

Mark,

The answer that I provided for Gerald was intended for someone new to the Syncro field.  Covering everything that is relevant would have gone on for many pages.

I have a decoupler and the reason is that when I bought my Syncro in late 2003, it had two different makes and sizes of tyres on the front and rear axles!  Needless to say and despite it being a very low KM vehicle, the VC had been rendered thoroughly aggressive because it had spent a lot of its life trying to match the speed of the front and rear axles, with the end result that it bound notably on full lock turns on a grippy surface.  The decoupler circumvents that.

Apart from such binding turns, I run as the vehicle was it designed by VAG and Steyr Puch.  My assessment of handling and grip is based on a rather long professional life with GM, where I built proof-of-concept and prototype vehicles, then beat the daylights out of them on the proving ground. 

Based on that experience and how I evaluate my own Syncro, I would suggest that any Syncro that “feels worse” in all wheel drive than two wheel drive is not running at spec.  By spec, I mean suspension and steering correct, tyre pressures correct, and the shafts within the acceptable wear limits.

The practical available power is in no way diminished by putting it through four wheels as against two.  Even an aggressive VC is not applying an unnecessary load to anything except on those full lock turns.  In fact, the antilock action of the VC is quite significant even in the dry but particularly so in the wet.  I have had two instances where the VC’s brake load distribution saved me from hitting things, and one unforgettable occasion where I was running decoupled without realizing it –I still have no idea how I didn’t hit him!!!  Talk about all locked up!!

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark
Sent: 29 December 2012 17:22
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
 

Hi Les,

I have to disagree on the decoupler debate. I have had syncros with and without, and wouldn't drive one without if I had a choice.

There's more power available without front wheels being driven.
There's none of the driveshaft rattle.
There's no binding of front wheels in sharp turns.
All of this is simply loading up the tranny and front cv's and v.c when conditions don't warrant it.
Whilst your arguments are valid, if I want those benefits when needed I just pull the button out.
Otherwise selectable 4wd makes the syncro much more pleasant around town.
Happy new year all.
Mark


Did it have the bowden cable decoupler?

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 29 December 2012 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.
 
I think that it was bought by the Danish army maybe.

> Les Harris <mailto:leslieharris%40optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Gerald,
>
> The solid drive was never sold in Australia and probably never optioned
> here
> either because it had very limited application. As far as I know, it
> was
> never a showroom floor model in Europe.
>
> Les
>
> _____

Yes

 


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greg esposito
Sent: 30 December 2012 08:48
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

 

 

Did it have the bowden cable decoupler?

 

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 29 December 2012 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

 

I think that it was bought by the Danish army maybe.

Accidental send!!  Yes, the early prototypes and the ongoing option were cable operated.  Phill will probably have more information.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greg esposito
Sent: 30 December 2012 08:48
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle Syncro.

Did it have the bowden cable decoupler?

 

The bowden cable actually operated a vacuum switch which operated the vacuum actuator like the reproduction ones. This was the only type that was available. It also engaged when selecting G or reverse.

Phill



> Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Accidental send!! Yes, the early prototypes and the ongoing option were
> cable operated. Phill will probably have more information.
>
> Les
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greg esposito
> Sent: 30 December 2012 08:48
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Looking for a Caravelle
> Syncro.
>
> Did it have the bowden cable decoupler?
>
>