LPG

1
With all the chat at present, wondering if anyone out there has
something to add along the lines of damage caused by running LPG?

I ask becaue we pretty much all know the advantages but are there any
disadvantages, apart from the, where do i put the tank? Think
mechanically, combustion, detonation etc...

Andrew
2
Hi all,
just thought I'd add my two cents worth on the gas debate.I've run my
syncro on gas for the last ten years.It runs smoother but does suffer
from a slight loss of power .You wanna make sure the whole engine &
cooling system are up to it as both of mine have recently been
recoed/replaced to keep it running properly.Before then I did blow 2
airflow meters & also my idle throttle body needed replacing ,but
since running it on gas ends up costing about half as much as ulp and
you end up having a 1000 to 1200k touring range and the choice of the
fuel you use , I would reccomend the conversion to anyone who intends
keeping there syncros long term. Cheers , Eddie Bergodaz.
3

Dear all,

 

My motivation to run my syncro’s on LPG is more then just the fact that i pay way less for fuel now.

Second very important reason is the environment. LPG is by far the cleanest fuel one can get here in Belgium .

 

There are no particles of soot in the exhaust fumes

No rests of lead or sulphur

HC : 30 to 80% less

CO : 40 to 90% less

NOx : 70 to 95% less

 

If you have a car that runs on petrol and LPG is available in your part of the world I think one owes it to the environment to run on LPG.

An other option is Natural Gas, which is even better then LPG for the environment. In some countries it’s easier to fnd LPG, in others you can find more natural gas.

 

If you run your car on diesel you can run it on pure vegetable oil. It will have less CO2 in the exhaust, but also, because this fuel comes from plant (that absorb CO2), bottom line there is no extra CO2 being put in the air as the plants recycle it.

The exhaust fumes have very little sulpher and there’s also less soot comingout of the exhaust. I don’t have correct numbers though. The only “minus” is that there will be slightly more NOx.

 

So, making a long story short : it’s great to enjoy our cars hobby. But it makes even more fun if you can do it with a “clear conscience”.

Later this year I want to start modifying a 14” Syncro 1600TD for “heavy offroad use”. I will definitely run that car on veggie oil !

 

Mike plompen

www.busman.be



4
Hi Eddie
Wondering how any ks before the reco on motor and radiator.
Also cost of 2 airflow meters and throttle body, new or 2nd hand
throttle body. Also was the Syncro dedicated gas or dual fuel???

Not trying to pry, just i am thinking about the conversion and only
because of the cost of fuel at present and future, it doesnt hurt that
the government is almost paying for the whole conversion.

I worry about engine temps and early wear on engine. so i ask so as to
really make a decision as u have had problems u seem to have both
sides of the argument.

Andrew

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "bergodaz" <bergodaz@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> just thought I'd add my two cents worth on the gas debate.I've run my
> syncro on gas for the last ten years.It runs smoother but does suffer
> from a slight loss of power .You wanna make sure the whole engine &
> cooling system are up to it as both of mine have recently been
> recoed/replaced to keep it running properly.Before then I did blow 2
> airflow meters & also my idle throttle body needed replacing ,but
> since running it on gas ends up costing about half as much as ulp and
> you end up having a 1000 to 1200k touring range and the choice of the
> fuel you use , I would reccomend the conversion to anyone who intends
> keeping there syncros long term. Cheers , Eddie Bergodaz.
>
5
Hey Mike.
I am not a wildlife warrior, but i do my bit for the environment.

I am more so concerned with the immediate harm it may do as far as
decreasing life expectancy of engine(MV) along with costs incurred
with blow up of airflow meter among other bits and pieces.

Yes Gas is cheaper, we here in Aus are paying top dollar for Petrol as
well($1.20Ltr) and i think gas is 60cents i may be wrong with the LPG
as i dont buy it, so at moment it does not concern me. But i use a the
ULP 97RON all the time.
So apart from environmental concerns and lower running costs, i wonder
what is the actual advantage, if it decreases life expectancy of
engines and causes serious misfires causing costs of replacement units?

Andrew



--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <borzeken@...> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> My motivation to run my syncro's on LPG is more then just the fact
that i
> pay way less for fuel now.
>
> Second very important reason is the environment. LPG is by far the
cleanest
> fuel one can get here in Belgium.
>
>
>
> There are no particles of soot in the exhaust fumes
>
> No rests of lead or sulphur
>
> HC : 30 to 80% less
>
> CO : 40 to 90% less
>
> NOx : 70 to 95% less
>
>
>
> If you have a car that runs on petrol and LPG is available in your
part of
> the world I think one owes it to the environment to run on LPG.
>
> An other option is Natural Gas, which is even better then LPG for the
> environment. In some countries it's easier to fnd LPG, in others you can
> find more natural gas.
>
>
>
> If you run your car on diesel you can run it on pure vegetable oil.
It will
> have less CO2 in the exhaust, but also, because this fuel comes from
plant
> (that absorb CO2), bottom line there is no extra CO2 being put in
the air as
> the plants recycle it.
>
> The exhaust fumes have very little sulpher and there's also less soot
> comingout of the exhaust. I don't have correct numbers though. The only
> "minus" is that there will be slightly more NOx.
>
>
>
> So, making a long story short : it's great to enjoy our cars hobby.
But it
> makes even more fun if you can do it with a "clear conscience".
>
> Later this year I want to start modifying a 14" Syncro 1600TD for "heavy
> offroad use". I will definitely run that car on veggie oil !
>
>
>
> Mike plompen
>
> www.busman.be <http://www.busman.be/>
>
6
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "syncrosity4now"
<syncrosity4now@...> wrote:
>Hi Andrew,
the 2afms were due to dodgy lifters &cold starts on gas rather than
warming the engine on petrol &then flicking it over(highly advisable)
The cooling system needed an overhual as all the hoses were wearing
and the two plastic pipes that run the length of the car also
leaked.The throttle body may have been worn by the gas passing
through that part of the intake system but as I understand it,the
new systems work differently and the gas goes through the injectors
thus avoiding any damage to afms or throttle bodies.I ran the car on
mostly gas about 5 gas to 1 petrol for a very hard 180000 ks (towing
a trailer approx 800-1000 kgs every day) and if it wasnt for my
leaky cooling system it would still be on the same engine.My latest
engine has hi comp pistons & although I was advised not to run gas
for the first 20000ks I started the gas at 10000ks and at 18000 ks
all is going well.Hope this helps ,Eddie.> Hi Eddie
> Wondering how any ks before the reco on motor and radiator.
> Also cost of 2 airflow meters and throttle body, new or 2nd hand
> throttle body. Also was the Syncro dedicated gas or dual fuel???
>
> Not trying to pry, just i am thinking about the conversion and only
> because of the cost of fuel at present and future, it doesnt hurt
that
> the government is almost paying for the whole conversion.
>
> I worry about engine temps and early wear on engine. so i ask so
as to
> really make a decision as u have had problems u seem to have both
> sides of the argument.
>
> Andrew
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "bergodaz" <bergodaz@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > just thought I'd add my two cents worth on the gas debate.I've
run my
> > syncro on gas for the last ten years.It runs smoother but does
suffer
> > from a slight loss of power .You wanna make sure the whole
engine &
> > cooling system are up to it as both of mine have recently been
> > recoed/replaced to keep it running properly.Before then I did
blow 2
> > airflow meters & also my idle throttle body needed
replacing ,but
> > since running it on gas ends up costing about half as much as
ulp and
> > you end up having a 1000 to 1200k touring range and the choice
of the
> > fuel you use , I would reccomend the conversion to anyone who
intends
> > keeping there syncros long term. Cheers , Eddie Bergodaz.
> >
>
7
Cheers
Really weighing up the pros and cons.
So because i have never had a car that is on LPG i am really in the dark.
Ok really u think the gas has or had very little to do with rebuild of
cooling, just age?
Also the misfires causing blow up of AFM's were mechanical and again
had nothing to do with the runnig of LPG.
Oh i like the high compression piston idea, i will ask why at this
stage of rebuild did u not opt for the lumpy cam, go on you know you
wanted to.
Just a personal thing for me with the cam.
Andrew



--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "bergodaz" <bergodaz@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "syncrosity4now"
> <syncrosity4now@> wrote:
> >Hi Andrew,
> the 2afms were due to dodgy lifters &cold starts on gas rather than
> warming the engine on petrol &then flicking it over(highly advisable)
> The cooling system needed an overhual as all the hoses were wearing
> and the two plastic pipes that run the length of the car also
> leaked.The throttle body may have been worn by the gas passing
> through that part of the intake system but as I understand it,the
> new systems work differently and the gas goes through the injectors
> thus avoiding any damage to afms or throttle bodies.I ran the car on
> mostly gas about 5 gas to 1 petrol for a very hard 180000 ks (towing
> a trailer approx 800-1000 kgs every day) and if it wasnt for my
> leaky cooling system it would still be on the same engine.My latest
> engine has hi comp pistons & although I was advised not to run gas
> for the first 20000ks I started the gas at 10000ks and at 18000 ks
> all is going well.Hope this helps ,Eddie.> Hi Eddie
> > Wondering how any ks before the reco on motor and radiator.
> > Also cost of 2 airflow meters and throttle body, new or 2nd hand
> > throttle body. Also was the Syncro dedicated gas or dual fuel???
> >
> > Not trying to pry, just i am thinking about the conversion and only
> > because of the cost of fuel at present and future, it doesnt hurt
> that
> > the government is almost paying for the whole conversion.
> >
> > I worry about engine temps and early wear on engine. so i ask so
> as to
> > really make a decision as u have had problems u seem to have both
> > sides of the argument.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "bergodaz" <bergodaz@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > > just thought I'd add my two cents worth on the gas debate.I've
> run my
> > > syncro on gas for the last ten years.It runs smoother but does
> suffer
> > > from a slight loss of power .You wanna make sure the whole
> engine &
> > > cooling system are up to it as both of mine have recently been
> > > recoed/replaced to keep it running properly.Before then I did
> blow 2
> > > airflow meters & also my idle throttle body needed
> replacing ,but
> > > since running it on gas ends up costing about half as much as
> ulp and
> > > you end up having a 1000 to 1200k touring range and the choice
> of the
> > > fuel you use , I would reccomend the conversion to anyone who
> intends
> > > keeping there syncros long term. Cheers , Eddie Bergodaz.
> > >
> >
>
8

Hi andrew, a well fit LPG installation doesn’t backfire. I ruined my airflow meter as well due to backfires, at that time the LPG installation was still as when I bought the car with it. I then had it take a good look at it by a local LPG specialist, he put an extra item on the system, after the airflow meter. Since then I’ve never had any backfires.

Recently I put in my oettinger wbx  6  3.2, I’m saving some money now to have my lpg installation adapted to this engine as well. If you drive from time to time on petrol when having an LPG system I wouldn’t know why it shortenes life expectancy of the engine.

Even if the balance of costs and benefits would be zero (which it isn’t, not by far), I think one should still have to consider LPG (or other environmental friendly alternatives)

 

mike

 

Van: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] Namens syncrosity4now
Verzonden: maandag 19 februari 2007 11:00
Aan: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: our hobby and the environment (was LPG)

 

Hey Mike.
I am not a wildlife warrior, but i do my bit for the environment.

I am more so concerned with the immediate harm it may do as far as
decreasing life expectancy of engine(MV) along with costs incurred
with blow up of airflow meter among other bits and pieces.

Yes Gas is cheaper, we here in Aus are paying top dollar for Petrol as
well($1.20Ltr) and i think gas is 60cents i may be wrong with the LPG
as i dont buy it, so at moment it does not concern me. But i use a the
ULP 97RON all the time.
So apart from environmental concerns and lower running costs, i wonder
what is the actual advantage, if it decreases life expectancy of
engines and causes serious misfires causing costs of replacement units?

Andrew

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com, "Mike" <borzeken@.. .> wrote:

>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> My motivation to run my syncro's on LPG is more then just the fact
that i
> pay way less for fuel now.
>
> Second very important reason is the environment. LPG is by far the
cleanest
> fuel one can get here in Belgium.
>
>
>
> There are no particles of soot in the exhaust fumes
>
> No rests of lead or sulphur
>
> HC : 30 to 80% less
>
> CO : 40 to 90% less
>
> NOx : 70 to 95% less
>
>
>
> If you have a car that runs on petrol and LPG is available in your
part of
> the world I think one owes it to the environment to run on LPG.
>
> An other option is Natural Gas, which is even better then LPG for the
> environment. In some countries it's easier to fnd LPG, in others you can
> find more natural gas.
>
>
>
> If you run your car on diesel you can run it on pure vegetable oil.
It will
> have less CO2 in the exhaust, but also, because this fuel comes from
plant
> (that absorb CO2), bottom line there is no extra CO2 being put in
the air as
> the plants recycle it.
>
> The exhaust fumes have very little sulpher and there's also less soot
> comingout of the exhaust. I don't have correct numbers though. The only
> "minus" is that there will be slightly more NOx.
>
>
>
> So, making a long story short : it's great to enjoy our cars hobby.
But it
> makes even more fun if you can do it with a "clear conscience".
>
> Later this year I want to start modifying a 14" Syncro 1600TD for
"heavy
> offroad use". I will definitely run that car on veggie oil !
>
>
>
> Mike plompen
>
> www.busman.be <http://www.busman. be/>
>

9
The matter of LPG has come up recently and we would be well advised to
keep our options open in this regard. There is no telling what will
happen to petrol prices in the current financial climate!

At the Day of the Volkswagen, Theo Weiss showed me his multi-point LPG
injection system, currently aflicted by a gremlin and not working.
This system is said to be superior to the original gas supply into the
intake manifold at a single point. It uses the existing ECU to
trigger the injection to each cylinder close to the intake valve. I
will get more details from him when it is running again.

Michael Roberts and his father, Bill, came down from Lockington in the
north west, and I learned that Bill has been running a standard MV
engine on the simple system for donkeys on a system that he put
together himself. His knowledge might be very useful to us in the
near future.

Les
10
Gday Les,

Petrol and LPG, both petroleum finite resources must surely be equally
problematic in terms of supply and price over the limited available time
left. Can't see our Federal government, suppliers or the refiners doing
us the consumers any favours one way or the other. Anyway, I'm still
mulling over what would need to be sacrificed in/on the Trakka to make
room for the LPG tank.

Natural gas, and I understand there is a lot of it available, would be a
better proposition, if only they could sort out the design/safety issues
and bring it to market asap. We live in hope of a "visionary" government
to push that or else an environmentally friendly alternative. I suggest
don't anyone hold their breath.

Perhaps a case of being caught between a rock and a hard place?

Worst comes to worst, the Trakka would make a wonderful kiddies
playroom/emergency spare bedroom out the backyard, up on blocks,
especially now I've replaced the pop-top struts.

Cheers.

Ken


--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
<leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> The matter of LPG has come up recently and we would be well advised to
> keep our options open in this regard. There is no telling what will
> happen to petrol prices in the current financial climate!
>
> At the Day of the Volkswagen, Theo Weiss showed me his multi-point LPG
> injection system, currently aflicted by a gremlin and not working.
> This system is said to be superior to the original gas supply into the
> intake manifold at a single point. It uses the existing ECU to
> trigger the injection to each cylinder close to the intake valve. I
> will get more details from him when it is running again.
>
> Michael Roberts and his father, Bill, came down from Lockington in the
> north west, and I learned that Bill has been running a standard MV
> engine on the simple system for donkeys on a system that he put
> together himself. His knowledge might be very useful to us in the
> near future.
>
> Les
>
11
Hi Les

Bill had also some experience in rebuilding stock Syncro tailshafts (propshafts) using a Holden Uni joint. This required some machining.

He told me that the uni joints i've installed on my shaft aren't rated for high speed applications. These are the correct size and fit but were destined for an agricultural application.

I'll continue down the path i've taken but it sounds like he would be a useful resource for others.

Cheers
Gary

[2 0 / 2 1 Design]
28 Gwynne St
Richmond
Vic 3121
gary@twentytwentyone.net
www.twentytwentyone.net
Tel 3 9429 1868
Fax 3 9421 1110
Mob 0417 352782

On 18/11/2008, at 10:03 AM, Les Harris wrote:

The matter of LPG has come up recently and we would be well advised to 
keep our options open in this regard. There is no telling what will 
happen to petrol prices in the current financial climate!

At the Day of the Volkswagen, Theo Weiss showed me his multi-point LPG 
injection system, currently aflicted by a gremlin and not working. 
This system is said to be superior to the original gas supply into the 
intake manifold at a single point. It uses the existing ECU to 
trigger the injection to each cylinder close to the intake valve. I 
will get more details from him when it is running again.

Michael Roberts and his father, Bill, came down from Lockington in the 
north west, and I learned that Bill has been running a standard MV 
engine on the simple system for donkeys on a system that he put 
together himself. His knowledge might be very useful to us in the 
near future.

Les


12
Gary,
 
That's valuable information.  I will be in touch with Bill this week and I will get more details on that one.
 
Thanks
 
Les
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] LPG

Hi Les


Bill had also some experience in rebuilding stock Syncro tailshafts (propshafts) using a Holden Uni joint. This required some machining.

He told me that the uni joints i've installed on my shaft aren't rated for high speed applications. These are the correct size and fit but were destined for an agricultural application.

I'll continue down the path i've taken but it sounds like he would be a useful resource for others.

Cheers
Gary

[2 0 / 2 1 Design]
28 Gwynne St
Richmond
Vic 3121
gary@twentytwentyon e.net
www.twentytwentyone .net
Tel 3 9429 1868
Fax 3 9421 1110
Mob 0417 352782

On 18/11/2008, at 10:03 AM, Les Harris wrote:

The matter of LPG has come up recently and we would b e well advised to 
keep our options open in this regard. There is no telling what will 
happen to petrol prices in the current financial climate!

At the Day of the Volkswagen, Theo Weiss showed me his multi-point LPG 
injection system, currently aflicted by a gremlin and not working. 
This system is said to be superior to the original gas supply into the 
intake manifold at a single point. It uses the existing ECU to 
trigger the injection to each cylinder close to the intake valve. I 
will get more details from him when it is running again.

Michael Roberts and his father, Bill, came down from Lockington in the 
north west, and I learned that Bill has been running a standard MV 
engine on the simple system for donkeys on a system that he put 
together himself. His knowledge might be very useful to us in the 
near future.

Les


13
I need to have my LPG tank on my Doka recertified and have been quoted $600+. Has anyone else had this done?