Pulsing Brakes

Hi group, have had pulsing rear brakes for quite a while. Changed drums & shoes about 6 months ago and still pulsing in about 50% of the stops. The rest of the stops are smooth. I understand the likely cause is drums being out of round, but only half the time? Any suggestions? Thanks, Eddie.
Hi Eddie, have you got SA drums?
From: "bergodaz@ozemail.com.au" <bergodaz@ozemail.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 16 February 2014 8:19 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
Hi group, have had pulsing rear brakes for quite a while. Changed drums & shoes about 6 months ago and still pulsing in about 50% of the stops. The rest of the stops are smooth. I understand the likely cause is drums being out of round, but only half the time? Any suggestions? Thanks, Eddie.


 RDA, Aussie brand probably Chinese made.
Leaking wheel cylinder?

Skot

On 16/02/2014 8:30 PM, bergodaz@ozemail.com.au wrote:

RDA, Aussie brand probably Chinese made.


Is the wheel flange face thin like the originals? Are you doing up your wheel nuts in a star pattern with a torque wrench? Rear wheel bearing play excessive? Have you tried it without the massive muddies?
From: "bergodaz@ozemail.com.au" <bergodaz@ozemail.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 16 February 2014 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
 RDA, Aussie brand probably Chinese made.


Yes Greg, could be bearings, they are half a million km old, and Scott may be onto something with leaky cylinders although there is no detectable oil leak. I 'm still confused as to why half the stops are smooth . What can possibly change from one set of lights to the next, 2 ks further down the same road and then back to pulsing 2 or 3 kms along. And yes muddies are off . Can't feel the pulsing as much with the rumble they make. Eddie.
Have the bearings never been repacked? If so get those hubs rebuilt asap. The housings are nla and old, dry bearings will turn in the housing and wear them out. Buy only German/Japanese bearings from your local bearing supplier. JK have the good sabo seals (4x). Check the w/cylinders buy lifting the edge of the dust boot, should be dry in there. Move the shoes side to side at the same time to check for seizing.  
From: "bergodaz@ozemail.com.au" <bergodaz@ozemail.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 16 February 2014 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
Yes Greg, could be bearings, they are half a million km old, and Scott may be onto something with leaky cylinders although there is no detectable oil leak. I 'm still confused as to why half the stops are smooth . What can possibly change from one set of lights to the next, 2 ks further down the same road and then back to pulsing 2 or 3 kms along. And yes muddies are off . Can't feel the pulsing as much with the rumble they make. Eddie.


I'll add wheel bearings to my very long to do list then.
Maybe bent splined axil or loose bearing or retainer nut how do you know its the rear Eddie?..............Pete


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 7:19 PM, <bergodaz@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
 

Hi group, have had pulsing rear brakes for quite a while. Changed drums & shoes about 6 months ago and still pulsing in about 50% of the stops. The rest of the stops are smooth. I understand the likely cause is drums being out of round, but only half the time? Any suggestions? Thanks, Eddie.


Pete, I know its the back because it happens when I apply the hand brake as well. Today the brakes were smooth all day. About 180k's of freeway and peak hour inner burbs traffic. The last stop before home they pulsed a bit. My thoughts are leaning towards the possibility of a bit of oil getting onto them & not letting them bed in properly. Hoping after a while it might burn off. Also tightened the wheel nuts a bit tonight. they were about 20nm too loose. How would that have an effect on the brakes Greg? Also my bearings should be ok. I remember plenty of moist grease when I pulled the hubs to change the shoes. Play in them has stayed the same in 20 years so hoping still OK. Eddie. 
Its not so much the total toque that is an issue more so the way you reach torque. If you don't do them up gradually in a star pattern can make a drum or disc out of round. If you say did them up in circle you would kind of bunch up the metal between the first and last stud.
From: "bergodaz@ozemail.com.au" <bergodaz@ozemail.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 17 February 2014 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
Pete, I know its the back because it happens when I apply the hand brake as well. Today the brakes were smooth all day. About 180k's of freeway and peak hour inner burbs traffic. The last stop before home they pulsed a bit. My thoughts are leaning towards the possibility of a bit of oil getting onto them & not letting them bed in properly. Hoping after a while it might burn off. Also tightened the wheel nuts a bit tonight. they were about 20nm too loose. How would that have an effect on the brakes Greg? Also my bearings should be ok. I remember plenty of moist grease when I pulled the hubs to change the shoes. Play in them has stayed the same in 20 years so hoping still OK. Eddie. 


Back in the olden days of the 5 stud 15” Beetles, it wasn’t easy to stop the drums from deforming with a bit of vigorous driving.  It required two things.  The first was to mark each wheel against a stud and always mount to the same stud.  The second was to keep the faces of the studs adequately lubricated so that no false torque was generated by friction.

No wheel should ever be tightened in a circular pattern; it must always be by progressive opposites; it is preferable that the faces of wheel nuts should be lubricated to avoid false torques.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Esposito
Sent: 17 February 2014 21:19
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 

Its not so much the total toque that is an issue more so the way you reach torque. If you don't do them up gradually in a star pattern can make a drum or disc out of round. If you say did them up in circle you would kind of bunch up the metal between the first and last stud.

 

I 100% agree with you Les, you cannot correctly torque a thread without lube. That said I didn't mention lube on the wheel nuts because of that silly sticker on the tailgate that says not to lube wheel nuts.
From: Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 17 February 2014 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
Back in the olden days of the 5 stud 15” Beetles, it wasn’t easy to stop the drums from deforming with a bit of vigorous driving.  It required two things.  The first was to mark each wheel against a stud and always mount to the same stud.  The second was to keep the faces of the studs adequately lubricated so that no false torque was generated by friction.
No wheel should ever be tightened in a circular pattern; it must always be by progressive opposites; it is preferable that the faces of wheel nuts should be lubricated to avoid false torques.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Esposito
Sent: 17 February 2014 21:19
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes
 
Its not so much the total toque that is an issue more so the way you reach torque. If you don't do them up gradually in a star pattern can make a drum or disc out of round. If you say did them up in circle you would kind of bunch up the metal between the first and last stud.
 


Similar subject on another forum...

http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=127269


To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:38:34 -0800
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
I 100% agree with you Les, you cannot correctly torque a thread without lube. That said I didn't mention lube on the wheel nuts because of that silly sticker on the tailgate that says not to lube wheel nuts.
From: Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 17 February 2014 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
Back in the olden days of the 5 stud 15” Beetles, it wasn’t easy to stop the drums from deforming with a bit of vigorous driving.  It required two things.  The first was to mark each wheel against a stud and always mount to the same stud.  The second was to keep the faces of the studs adequately lubricated so that no false torque was generated by friction.
No wheel should ever be tightened in a circular pattern; it must always be by progressive opposites; it is preferable that the faces of wheel nuts should be lubricated to avoid false torques.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Esposito
Sent: 17 February 2014 21:19
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes
 
Its not so much the total toque that is an issue more so the way you reach torque. If you don't do them up gradually in a star pattern can make a drum or disc out of round. If you say did them up in circle you would kind of bunch up the metal between the first and last stud.
 



Greg,

This is a perennial problem with trying to make things foolproof and achieves the opposite.  The biggest producer of false torque is rust – something never mentioned by well intentioned stickers!! 

I had a bloke tell me once that there was no need to torque wheel nuts because all you had to do was listen to the screech made by the wheel nuts.  And what produces the screech? 

Oh dear!!  Oops!!

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Esposito
Sent: 17 February 2014 21:39
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 

I 100% agree with you Les, you cannot correctly torque a thread without lube. That said I didn't mention lube on the wheel nuts because of that silly sticker on the tailgate that says not to lube wheel nuts.

What a clown, he probably worked for the RACV!!! I don't know what VW were thinking when they made that sticker. I can only guess they had some nuts come loose in testing. Tell anyone on the salt coated roads of Canada or the UK that they should not lube their wheel nuts and they will laugh at you. I use anti seize on almost everything under the car.
From: Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 18 February 2014 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

 
Greg,
This is a perennial problem with trying to make things foolproof and achieves the opposite.  The biggest producer of false torque is rust – something never mentioned by well intentioned stickers!! 
I had a bloke tell me once that there was no need to torque wheel nuts because all you had to do was listen to the screech made by the wheel nuts.  And what produces the screech? 
Oh dear!!  Oops!!
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Esposito
Sent: 17 February 2014 21:39
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes
 
I 100% agree with you Les, you cannot correctly torque a thread without lube. That said I didn't mention lube on the wheel nuts because of that silly sticker on the tailgate that says not to lube wheel nuts.


Greg/ Les,

On my syncro - I have alloys - never had a need to lube the nuts - the alloy seems to let them move easier.

However, my bay kombi - I learnt the hard way.

Tyre place did them up with the rattle gun to the point of no return. - I had to go back there as my breaker bar bent trying to undo them.

Now I have some molybdenum dy-sulphide grease on them (just a bit) and they stay done up and I can remove them with a wheel brace when necessary - even after a tyre shop has had a go at them.

They don't come loose by themselves either.

Skot

On 18/02/2014 11:03 PM, Greg Esposito wrote:
What a clown, he probably worked for the RACV!!! I don't know what VW were thinking when they made that sticker. I can only guess they had some nuts come loose in testing. Tell anyone on the salt coated roads of Canada or the UK that they should not lube their wheel nuts and they will laugh at you. I use anti seize on almost everything under the car.
From: Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 18 February 2014 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes

Greg,
This is a perennial problem with trying to make things foolproof and achieves the opposite. The biggest producer of false torque is rust – something never mentioned by well intentioned stickers!!
I had a bloke tell me once that there was no need to torque wheel nuts because all you had to do was listen to the screech made by the wheel nuts. And what produces the screech?
Oh dear!! Oops!!
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Esposito
Sent: 17 February 2014 21:39
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes
I 100% agree with you Les, you cannot correctly torque a thread without lube. That said I didn't mention lube on the wheel nuts because of that silly sticker on the tailgate that says not to lube wheel nuts.



I have always lubed my wheel nuts and have never had one come loose despite warnings from many people that they would. The only problem is you have to watch that some idiot doesn't drop them on the ground as dirt sticks to the grease.
In the rare event that I need tyres fitted by a workshop I take the wheels off at home and put them back on myself, just not worth it, especially with alloys as the seats can get chewed out as well by over tightening.
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 18/2/14, spbconsulting@bigpond.com <spbconsulting@bigpond.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing Brakes
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Received: Tuesday, 18 February, 2014, 11:09 PM















Greg/
Les,



On my syncro - I have alloys - never had a need to
lube the nuts -
the alloy seems to let them move easier.



However, my bay kombi - I learnt the hard way.



Tyre place did them up with the rattle gun to the
point of no
return. - I had to go back there as my breaker bar
bent trying to
undo them.



Now I have some molybdenum dy-sulphide grease on them
(just a bit)
and they stay done up and I can remove them with a
wheel brace
when necessary - even after a tyre shop has had a go
at them.



They don't come loose by themselves either.



Skot



On 18/02/2014 11:03 PM, Greg Esposito wrote:








What a clown, he probably worked for the
RACV!!! I
don't know what VW were thinking when
they made that
sticker. I can only guess they had some nuts
come loose
in testing. Tell anyone on the salt coated
roads of
Canada or the UK that they should not lube
their wheel
nuts and they will laugh at you. I use anti
seize on
almost everything under the car.




From:
Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>

To:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com


Sent:
Tuesday, 18 February 2014 10:08 PM

Subject:
RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Pulsing
Brakes













Greg,
This
is
a perennial problem
with trying
to make things
foolproof and
achieves the
opposite. The
biggest producer
of false torque is
rust –
something never
mentioned by well
intentioned
stickers!!

I had
a
bloke tell me once
that there
was no need to torque
wheel nuts
because all you had to
do was
listen to the screech
made by the wheel
nuts. And what
produces the
screech?
Oh
dear!!
Oops!!
Les




From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
On
Behalf Of
Greg
Esposito

Sent: 17
February 2014
21:39

To:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com

Subject:
Re:
[Syncro_T3_Australia]
Pulsing
Brakes








I
100% agree
with you Les,
you cannot
correctly
torque a
thread without
lube.
That said I
didn't
mention lube
on the
wheel nuts
because of
that silly
sticker on
the tailgate
that says
not to lube
wheel nuts.







































#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433 --
#yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp #yiv6329210433hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp #yiv6329210433ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp .yiv6329210433ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp .yiv6329210433ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mkp .yiv6329210433ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6329210433ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6329210433ygrp-lc #yiv6329210433hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6329210433ygrp-lc .yiv6329210433ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433activity span
.yiv6329210433underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 dd.yiv6329210433last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6329210433 dd.yiv6329210433last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6329210433 dd.yiv6329210433last p
span.yiv6329210433yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433file-title a, #yiv6329210433
div.yiv6329210433file-title a:active, #yiv6329210433
div.yiv6329210433file-title a:hover, #yiv6329210433
div.yiv6329210433file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433photo-title a,
#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433photo-title a:active,
#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433photo-title a:hover,
#yiv6329210433 div.yiv6329210433photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 div#yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv6329210433ygrp-msg p a span.yiv6329210433yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv6329210433 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6329210433 .yiv6329210433replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv6329210433 input, #yiv6329210433 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv6329210433
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-mlmsg #yiv6329210433logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-msg
p#yiv6329210433attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-reco
#yiv6329210433reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-sponsor #yiv6329210433ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-sponsor #yiv6329210433ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-sponsor #yiv6329210433ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv6329210433 #yiv6329210433ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv6329210433
Today I found the culprit to my brake issues. I had the van jacked up and watched the brake drums spin . One looked like a buckled bike rim going round. Probably cooked it after the cylinder on that side gave up & spit oil inside the drum. Put an old drum on , adjusted the shoes and all is good again. Eddie.
Well done.


--Original Message Text---
From: bergodaz@ozemail.com.au
Date: 26 Feb 2014 01:49:41 -0800



Today I found the culprit to my brake issues. I had the van jacked up and watched the brake drums spin . One looked like a buckled bike rim going round. Probably cooked it after the cylinder on that side gave up & spit oil inside the drum. Put an old drum on , adjusted the shoes and all is good again. Eddie.