I doubt Hartmut would have a bead-roller, a rather specialized piece of equipment. However, there is someone in Melbourne who sells or makes the end-bits with the bulge in different sizes. Werner Tritt made up some stainless steel water-pipes with the bulge at the end but unfortunately he never got around to tell me who did the end-bits. I have been look ever since.
I like Roger's idea to fix the plastic pipe though. What is the ID size of the plastic pipe?
G'day Theo
I'll have to get back to you on the size of the plastic pipe - the spare ones are down at the muffler shop to be used for a pattern for the stainless pipes when we get around to it.
We made that 'temporary' insert about six months ago. I found the appropriate size in the offcuts bin next to the cut-off saw. It was just mild steel pipe, and only intended to last for a short time - although the original factory insert looked like mild steel, and it lasted twenty years. I guess G11 coolant has anti-corrosive properties.
A non-ferrous metal would be better, but harder to find.
Any muffler shop can expand or reduce pipe ends.
So far I haven't had any luck finding a bead roller, which is the only tool we need to make our own stainless steel coolant pipes.
Maybe we can get by without one. The function of the rim at the end of the pipe is so that the hose clamp can't slip off. Am I right or wrong? Maybe a couple of spots of silver solder would do the same thing. Any ideas out there?
Garry at the muffler shop can source 1 1/2 inch s/s pipe in 6 metre lengths, which is just what we need to make a pair of pipes. It is available in three different grades: '409', '304' [food grade] or '316' at $30, $37 and $65 per metre respectively.
I could do some lengthy research on the merits of the different materials, but it is likely that there are members of the group who are well qualified to give me advice. What do you recommend?
By the way Les, I think we have drifted off the subject a bit. Do you think we need to change the subject heading to "plastic coolant pipe repair" and/or "stainless steel coolant pipes"?
I haven't had a chance to finish the Syncro project as the old Range Rover keeps vying for attention. Yesterday the electric fuel pump packed it in - luckily, in the driveway at home. The pump on those early EFI's is buried in the bowels of the petrol tank - which means dropping out the tank or removing the cargo bay floor. I decided to do the latter so I could make a removable panel in it for next time. Had to drill out a couple of dozen rivets to take out the floor - just like a big meccano set. Now, after the new pump arrives in the mail, I will be able to get a mate to drive while I sit in the back to watch the rear suspension work, and identify that elusive 'clunk'. Very undignified!
The upshot is that the old Syncro with it's tired engine will be called upon again to do a 500 km round trip today, up the mountain in 40 degree heat. That will test out the coolant pipes!
> So far I haven't had any luck finding a bead roller, which is the only
> tool we need to make our own stainless steel coolant pipes.
>
> Maybe we can get by without one. The function of the rim at the end of
>
> the pipe is so that the hose clamp can't slip off. Am I right or wrong?
> Maybe
> a couple of spots of silver solder would do the same thing. Any ideas
> out
> there?
Just get a ss ring made on a lathe and weld it on.
>
> Garry at the muffler shop can source 1 1/2 inch s/s pipe in 6 metre
> lengths, which is just what we need to make a pair of pipes. It is
> available in
> three different grades: '409', '304' [food grade] or '316' at $30, $37
> and
> $65 per metre respectively.
>
> I could do some lengthy research on the merits of the different
> materials, but it is likely that there are members of the group who are
> well
> qualified to give me advice. What do you recommend?
>
316 would be my choice as it was designed for corrosion resistance in a marine environment.
304 was designed for food.
Are you using the material for its food or corrosion resistance properties?
There have been a couple of occasions in
the past when I have had to create the equivalent of a rolled bead on a pipe
end and I have done this by cutting a ring from a larger pipe and slipping it
over the end of the pipe that needs a bead. Brazing the ring secured it
in place and the brazing fillet plus a little light filing provided a rounded
bead. This will last the life of the pipe. It needs surprising
little increase in diameter to provide adequate retention.
Leave the thread title as it is. There
has been so much valuable information contributed by you and Ken that I will do
a cut and paste later and put it into the Database.
Les
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Gullyraker@aol.com Sent: 23 January 2010 08:43 To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Re: Coolant rubber hose
Maybe we can get by without
one. The function of the rim at the end of the pipe is so that the hose clamp
can't slip off. Am I right or wrong? Maybe a couple of spots of silver solder
would do the same thing. Any ideas out there?
By the way Les, I think we have drifted off the subject a bit. Do you think we
need to change the subject heading to "plastic coolant pipe repair"
and/or "stainless steel coolant pipes"?
I mentioned brazing because I was using
mild steel pipe and brazing was the best application. Brazing and silver
soldering are good applications for this type of joint because both will run
completely through the joint. A 5mm ring on a 50 mm pipe has 750 sq mm of
joint in shear, which is impossible to break. Welding would work just as
well in the application under discussion and certainly won’t fail in
service.
Les
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Gullyraker@aol.com Sent: 23 January 2010 09:10 To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Re: Coolant rubber hose
Thanks for the tip, Les. Will braising
stainless have any detrimental effect?
Cheers, Roger [Beetle] Bayley.
Phill,
So if VAG had simply used 316 stainless or even brass ends (GoWesty repair kit) in the original plastic pipes, this worldwide growth industry in pipe replacements and huge costs, waste of finite resources etc., would never have seeen the light of day?
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: plander@optusnet.com.au Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:54:52 +1100 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant rubber hose
> So far I haven't had any luck finding a bead roller, which is the only > tool we need to make our own stainless steel coolant pipes. > > Maybe we can get by without one. The function of the rim at the end of > > the pipe is so that the hose clamp can't slip off. Am I right or wrong? > Maybe > a couple of spots of silver solder would do the same thing. Any ideas > out > there?
Just get a ss ring made on a lathe and weld it on.
> > Garry at the muffler shop can source 1 1/2 inch s/s pipe in 6 metre > lengths, which is just what we need to make a pair of pipes. It is > available in > three different grades: '409', '304' [food grade] or '316' at $30, $37 > and > $65 per metre respectively. > > I could do some lengthy research on the merits of the different > materials, but it is likely that there are members of the group who are > well > qualified to give me advice. What do you recommend? >
316 would be my choice as it was designed for corrosion resistance in a marine environment. 304 was designed for food. Are you using the material for its food or corrosion resistance properties?
Cost?
Electrolysis?
What is the life expectancy of the original material if the correct coolant and water were used?
If you replace them now with genuine VW pipes and they last another 15 years..............
Who will still have their syncro in 2025?
Maybe VW don't want their vehicles to last forever. It's just a shame that there is no replacement for the syncro.
Phill
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Phill,
>
> So if VAG had simply used 316 stainless or even brass ends (GoWesty
> repair kit) in the original plastic pipes, this worldwide growth
> industry in pipe replacements and huge costs, waste of finite resources
> etc., would never have seeen the light of day?
>
> Ken
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: plander@optusnet.com.au
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:54:52 +1100
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant rubber hose
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > So far I haven't had any luck finding a bead roller, which is the only
>
> > tool we need to make our own stainless steel coolant pipes.
> >
> > Maybe we can get by without one. The function of the rim at the end of
>
> >
> > the pipe is so that the hose clamp can't slip off. Am I right or
> wrong?
> > Maybe
> > a couple of spots of silver solder would do the same thing. Any ideas
> > out
> > there?
>
> Just get a ss ring made on a lathe and weld it on.
>
> >
> > Garry at the muffler shop can source 1 1/2 inch s/s pipe in 6 metre
> > lengths, which is just what we need to make a pair of pipes. It is
> > available in
> > three different grades: '409', '304' [food grade] or '316' at $30, $37
>
> > and
> > $65 per metre respectively.
> >
> > I could do some lengthy research on the merits of the different
> > materials, but it is likely that there are members of the group who
> are
> > well
> > qualified to give me advice. What do you recommend?
> >
>
> 316 would be my choice as it was designed for corrosion resistance in a
> marine environment.
> 304 was designed for food.
> Are you using the material for its food or corrosion resistance
> properties?
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Shopping Trolley Mechanic If It Exists, You'll Find it on SEEK
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/
I was wondering myself why the factory used plastic. Perhaps it was due to cost and/or weight issues. They used steel pipes in the early 1.9 T3's with no apparent ill-effect - I know of a couple still running around with the originals. I think corrosion may have been an issue overseas where they salt down the icy roads.
Electrolysis is another issue that needs more research and discussion. Can it be measured? If so I will do so before and after fitting the s/s pipes.
The only reason I prefer silver-solder or brazing was that I'm too lazy to change the wire in the MIG.
There might be a problem of heat transfer with steel. I'll look under Eddie's 1.9 to see if the pipes are insulated.
If the plastic pipes were still available I'd buy them, as the originals worked fine for years. Has anybody ever fractured one in real life? Maybe I am just a paranoid victim of a global conspiracy to sell useless overpriced goods.
Perhaps its my rabid distrust of twenty year-old plastic - could be just left-over of bad memories of twenty-year-olds with plastic.
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: plander@optusnet.com.au Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 10:14:45 +1100 Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant rubber hose
Maybe there is a reason for not using metal??????
mmmmm ... these newer silicone pipes sound interesting. Might have legs? I expect they still need inserts. But whatever is used, seems the adjoining rubber hose & spring clip need a rigid pipe to seal to, hence the metal end inserts.
Cost? Be a whole lot cheaper if all this grief could have been avoided in the first place. But yeah, built-in obsolescence eh, such a beaut concept! (not)
Electrolysis? Aluminium radiator core, mild steel pipes and inserts, TS (?) head studs, brass (GoWesty repair kit) pipe inserts, add some food grade stainless steel piping, cast alloy head cooling jackets, metal mix in water pump, anything else? .... haha, what a pot pourri. Just how good IS G12+ ?????!! Phew!
What is the life expectancy of the original material if the correct coolant and water were used?
Decide which is the weakest link in the chain .... I reckon archilles heal for longevity of coolant system components is electrolosis due to dissimilar metals. Around and around we go.
If you replace them now with genuine VW pipes and they last another 15 years....... ....... Who will still have their syncro in 2025? Phill, I would expect no less than to see your syncro at the 2025 VW Nationals. I'll be the one there in the wheelchair.
Maybe VW don't want their vehicles to last forever.
See above cynical comment re built-in obsolescence. VAG must really hate the likes of us eh.
It's just a shame that there is no replacement for the syncro. Haha ... well there IS!!!! We're all busy replacing it every other day!
Phill Ken
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail. com> wrote: > > > Phill, > > So if VAG had simply used 316 stainless or even brass ends (GoWesty > repair kit) in the original plastic pipes, this worldwide growth > industry in pipe replacements and huge costs, waste of finite resources > etc., would never have seeen the light of day? > > Ken > > > To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com > From: plander@optusnet. com.au > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:54:52 +1100 > Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Re: Coolant rubber hose > > > > > > > > > So far I haven't had any luck finding a bead roller, which is the only > > > tool we need to make our own stainless steel coolant pipes. > > > > Maybe we can get by without one. The function of the rim at the end of > > > > > the pipe is so that the hose clamp can't slip off. Am I right or > wrong? > > Maybe > > a couple of spots of silver solder would do the same thing. Any ideas > > out > > there? > > Just get a ss ring made on a lathe and weld it on. > > > > > Garry at the muffler shop can source 1 1/2 inch s/s pipe in 6 metre > > lengths, which is just what we need to make a pair of pipes. It is > > available in > > three different grades: '409', '304' [food grade] or '316' at $30, $37 > > > and > > $65 per metre respectively. > > > > I could do some lengthy research on the merits of the different > > materials, but it is likely that there are members of the group who > are > > well > > qualified to give me advice. What do you recommend? > > > > 316 would be my choice as it was designed for corrosion resistance in a > marine environment. > 304 was designed for food. > Are you using the material for its food or corrosion resistance > properties? > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Shopping Trolley Mechanic If It Exists, You'll Find it on SEEK > http://clk.atdmt. com/NMN/go/ 157639755/ direct/01/
I had to repair my plastic coolant pipe sometime ago. I cut off the broken end bit and luckily I could still reuse the metal insert.
(But, silly me, I did not measure the ID. Then I used a 1.5" marine exhaust hose to complete the repair job. So all I need for the unexpected break-down is a snug-fitting pipe insert, preferably non corrosive to get me out of trouble.
I guess a stainless set-up would be a better choice though. Helps with cooling (cooling fins perhaps?).
I replaced mine about 3 years ago due to a crack in the metal insert that I was not willing to risk letting me down miles from anywhere.(The water pump subsequently performed that duty). I think the new pipes cost me about $800 including professional fitting and I looked at the GoWesty brass inserts but decided to keep my vehicle all original.. Shortly afterward I went on the original Shallow Crossing excursion and found I was losing a small amount of fluid. It turned out the new Australian made stainless steel worm drive clip (utilux?) had broken right through. Rudi came to the rescue with a replacement oem clip and lent me his special key to tighten it without slipping as could happen with a screwdriver.I have reason to be grateful to many generous friends in our wonderful group.
My Syncro has since been to WA and Cape York without fracturing but it does seem to me that whilst it is generally protected by the extra syncro ladder chassis there is a point about level with the gearbox where they could be vulnerable to a rock in the wrong place.
Then again so am I .
Cheers
Roger (the non technical one)
--- On Sat, 23/1/10, plander@optusnet.com.au <plander@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Roger,
Nice read.
But it's a moot point. I'm trying to visualise with some difficulty if you say you are similarly vulnerable to a rock in the wrong place, just exactly at what level is your gearbox?
I think I've missed something here .... hhhmmmmm.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: bellrmit@yahoo.com.au Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:13:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant rubber hose
I replaced mine about 3 years ago due to a crack in the metal insert that I was not willing to risk letting me down miles from anywhere.(The water pump subsequently performed that duty). I think the new pipes cost me about $800 including professional fitting and I looked at the GoWesty brass inserts but decided to keep my vehicle all original.. Shortly afterward I went on the original Shallow Crossing excursion and found I was losing a small amount of fluid. It turned out the new Australian made stainless steel worm drive clip (utilux?) had broken right through. Rudi came to the rescue with a replacement oem clip and lent me his special key to tighten it without slipping as could happen with a screwdriver. I have reason to be grateful to many generous friends in our wonderful group.
My Syncro has since been to WA and Cape York without fracturing but it does seem to me that whilst it is generally protected by the extra syncro ladder chassis there is a point about level with the gearbox where they could be vulnerable to a rock in the wrong place.
Then again so am I .
Cheers
Roger (the non technical one)
--- On Sat, 23/1/10, plander@optusnet. com.au <plander@optusnet. com.au> wrote:
Could you not
use a expanding Crox swage tool as use for plumbing copper pipes? The ball
bearings expand out when you turn the top handle while you turn the cross
handle. You would have to heat the
metal pipe up red hot to soften it.
the idea of a bead rim is to prevent a slippage of
the flexible pipe connection to the metal pipe, one can braze or silver solder a
ring flange to the end of the pipe and this will give the pipe clamp a grip
shoulder so it will not slip back when under pressure
Just an update concerning work-in-progress on rubber coolant hoses for the T3 syncro. My objective being to identify as many available substitutes as possible and sourced from Australia-wide auto parts retail outlets .. hopefully cheaper as well.
I started out with a short list of much cheaper Dayco brand substitutes gleaned from the US syncro forum, hoping to build on that, only to discover Dayco don't sell coolant hoses in Australia. Back to the drawing board. I've yet to learn if the 2 major Australian suppliers of hoses ... Gates and Mackay, have equivalents. I might get lucky and uncover a cross reference chart.
I'm presently at the stage where I need to have confirmed the internal diameters at each end of the 18 different hoses. Idea being I or anyone can then search for the exact diameter equivalents and/or secondly, some others at least as close as possible.
To this end, I need your help please.
Please find attached here a work-in-progress coolant hose chart. It's pretty much self explanatory. Essentially what I need is feedback from anyone who would measure the ends of new SPARE hoses they do have, then compare these findings with the hose end measurements I have marked on the chart in red. I need to be told if any of these marked dimensions are incorrect. Not as important but also feel free to supply the correct measurements of the ones with red question marks.
Roger, I'm still waiting with baited breath the substitutes you have uncovered and written down somewhere with a knib dipped in dirty engine oil. Any luck so far or has your SS coolant pipes project got your attention sidetracked?
As I said before, many hands make light work. If I can achieve something at all useful to the group with this, then being stuck anywhere around Oz with a busted coolant hose but equipped with an equivalents ready reckoner may then be not so daunting.
Any glitches I've made, please advise ok. Thanks in advance. Cheers.
Ken
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@...> wrote: > > > Roger, > > Yes I'd be interested to add to the list of known alternatives for 18 different syncro coolant hoses, especially if they are cheaper. Not easy but as they say ... many hands make light work. Let me know what you have please, make and model. > Cheers. > > Ken > > > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com > From: Gullyraker@... > Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:31:01 +0000 > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant rubber hoses > > > You're idea of compiling a hose source list is a beauty. I've got a couple of other substitutes scrawled into the Bentley Bible, written with a broken fingernail dipped in oil ... > I'll let you know what they are. > > Cheers, Roger [Beetle] Bayley. >
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Ken Garratt Sent: 07 February 2010 02:11 To: Syncro _T3_Australia forum Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re:
Coolant rubber hoses
Roger and ALL,
Just an update concerning work-in-progress on rubber coolant hoses
for the T3 syncro. My objective being to identify as many available
substitutes as possible and sourced from Australia-wide auto parts retail
outlets .. hopefully cheaper as well.
