re: Ethanol E10

1
All,
Live and learn. Seems VAG OKs E10 for post 1986 fuel injected vehicles ...
 
Goto: http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-
 
The current NRMA Open Road mag fuel article (page 20) lists in part:
 
Standard ULP is 91 RON and by comparison ...
 
Mobil, BP, Shell/Coles, Caltex/Woolworths E10 is 93-94 RON,
Liberty E10 is 94 RON,
United E10 is 95 RON.
 
Interesting then that Premium ULP, also listed, has not much more punch at 95 RON. Actually the same as United E10.
 
I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
 
So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA. Be interesting then to see if United E10 can be bought at or cheaper than the phased out ULP 91.
 
Cheers.
Ken
 
 
 
 

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2
Ken

Very interesting. being in Vic would like to get a copy of that NMRA article. When you say "So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA."
Does that mean No Longer Available? Why?
 
Regards

Michael


From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: Syncro _T3_Australia forum <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 21 July, 2010 8:04:33 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10

 

All,
Live and learn. Seems VAG OKs E10 for post 1986 fuel injected vehicles ...
 
Goto: http://www.fcai. com.au/publicati ons/all/all/ all/3/can- my-vehicle- operate-on- ethanol-blend- petrol-
 
The current NRMA Open Road mag fuel article (page 20) lists in part:
 
Standard ULP is 91 RON and by comparison ...
 
Mobil, BP, Shell/Coles, Caltex/Woolworths E10 is 93-94 RON,
Liberty E10 is 94 RON,
United E10 is 95 RON.
 
Interesting then that Premium ULP, also listed, has not much more punch at 95 RON. Actually the same as United E10.
 
I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
 
So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA. Be interesting then to see if United E10 can be bought at or cheaper than the phased out ULP 91.
 
Cheers.
Ken
 
 
 
 

Meet local singles online. Browse profiles for FREE!


 
3
Ken, the RACV did a real world test with three identical camrys. The one with pulp used the least fuel second came standard unleaded and the e10, even with its higher octane rating, came last. Also when e10 was being forced into the market the car manufactures said they did not want it because it caused high levels of engine wear. The only thing that has changed is that they can't be seen resisting anything "green". Octane rating is not the be all and end all of fuel. Greg E

--- On Wed, 21/7/10, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 8:04 PM

 
All,
Live and learn. Seems VAG OKs E10 for post 1986 fuel injected vehicles ...
 
Goto: http://www.fcai. com.au/publicati ons/all/all/ all/3/can- my-vehicle- operate-on- ethanol-blend- petrol-
 
The current NRMA Open Road mag fuel article (page 20) lists in part:
 
Standard ULP is 91 RON and by comparison ...
 
Mobil, BP, Shell/Coles, Caltex/Woolworths E10 is 93-94 RON,
Liberty E10 is 94 RON,
United E10 is 95 RON.
 
Interesting then that Premium ULP, also listed, has not much more punch at 95 RON. Actually the same as United E10.
 
I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
 
So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA. Be interesting then to see if United E10 can be bought at or cheaper than the phased out ULP 91.
 
Cheers.
Ken
 
 
 
 

Meet local singles online. Browse profiles for FREE!

 
4

I noticed a member of the Kombi Club who has an oil temperature gauge and a head temperature gauge on his aircooled kombi, tried E10 in the last 6 months as his usual fuel station brought it in.
 
He noticed a significant increase in head and oil temperature when using the E10. He reverted straight back to 95RON and the temperatures went back to normal.
 
I think they need to make engines specifically for ethanol as they do in Brazil.Otherwise it will be an engine killer.
 
Skot
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10

 

Ken, the RACV did a real world test with three identical camrys. The one with pulp used the least fuel second came standard unleaded and the e10, even with its higher octane rating, came last. Also when e10 was being forced into the market the car manufactures said they did not want it because it caused high levels of engine wear. The only thing that has changed is that they can't be seen resisting anything "green". Octane rating is not the be all and end all of fuel. Greg E

--- On Wed, 21/7/10, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail. com> wrote:

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail. com>
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] re: Ethanol E10
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia @yahoogroups. com>
Received: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 8:04 PM

 
All,
Live and learn. Seems VAG OKs E10 for post 1986 fuel injected vehicles ...
 
Goto: http://www.fcai. com.au/publicati ons/all/all/ all/3/can- my-vehicle- operate-on- ethanol-blend- petrol-
 
The current NRMA Open Road mag fuel article (page 20) lists in part:
 
Standard ULP is 91 RON and by comparison ...
 
Mobil, BP, Shell/Coles, Caltex/Woolworths E10 is 93-94 RON,
Liberty E10 is 94 RON,
United E10 is 95 RON.
 
Interesting then that Premium ULP, also listed, has not much more punch at 95 RON. Actually the same as United E10.
 
I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
 
So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA. Be interesting then to see if United E10 can be bought at or cheaper than the phased out ULP 91.
 
Cheers.
Ken
 
 
 
 

Meet local singles online. Browse profiles for FREE!

 

5
> Michael Rayner <mrayner51@yahoo.com> wrote:

> When you say "So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA."
> Does that mean No Longer Available? Why?
> Regards
>
>
> Michael
>

Political perceived greenie garbage, just like global warming.
6
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>

>
> I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to
> put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get
> you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
>
>

You are comparing two different things here.

Ethanol has a lower BTU rating than petrol. That means that you must use more of it to get the same work done.

Octane is the knock ratiing. Higher octane will allow you to advance the ignition timing and increase the compression ratio to make the engine more efficient.

E10 causes corrosion problems as it hold water.
7
You must learn to read those lists correctly.

Yes you may be able to run E10 in VWs.

But what is the octane of E10?
Australia might be 93, but what octane E10 is in Europe?
Many VWs require 98 octane so they cannot run on Australian E10.

It's just like a lot of other statistics, you must read them correctly.

eg, the safety data on airbags is from the US. The US has different airbags to Australia.

Driving with headlights on during the day. The data came from Sweden.

These lists are garbage.



> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> All,
>
> Live and learn. Seems VAG OKs E10 for post 1986 fuel injected vehicles
> ...
>
>
>
> Goto:
> http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-
> on-ethanol-blend-petrol-
>
>
>
> The current NRMA Open Road mag fuel article (page 20) lists in part:
>
>
>
> Standard ULP is 91 RON and by comparison ...
>
>
>
> Mobil, BP, Shell/Coles, Caltex/Woolworths E10 is 93-94 RON,
>
> Liberty E10 is 94 RON,
>
> United E10 is 95 RON.
>
>
>
> Interesting then that Premium ULP, also listed, has not much more punch
> at 95 RON. Actually the same as United E10.
>
>
>
> I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to
> put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get
> you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
>
>
>
> So this time next year, ULP 91 will be NLA. Be interesting then to see
> if United E10 can be bought at or cheaper than the phased out ULP 91.
>
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Browse profiles for FREE! Meet local singles online.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
8
re
"ECU can detect & adjust timing accordingly."

Sorry, can't say that's true for a 2.1 waterboxer ECU/
it's not 'smart' that way ..
no knock sensor ...the timing is what it is, based on where it is set
initially.
It can not respond to higher octane fuel actually.

In Oregon USA here, we've had gasoline that 'contains up to 10 % alcohol
for about 3 years.
I always run unleaded regular.
Octane is 89 I believe.
works fine.
if anyone wishes to use higher octane than unleaded regular provides, I
recommend mid-grade, but never premium.
and they'll run a little smoother on mid-grade than on regular, granted.

whether that delivers more power or better fuel economy .....'barely' if at
all would be my guess.

'run cooler' ....'maybe'.... but not that I can tell.

I can't say I pay much attention to what VW may or may not recommend for
Syncro's and T3's ..
around here they probably couldn't find the............ say, oxygen sensor
on a T3 at the VW dealership ..
and I'm only exaggerating a little bit. The impression I get is VW would
be happy if they never heard about waterboxer engines, or T3's or Syncro's
ever again.

don't know about your fuel, but here they run decently enough on unleaded 89
octane regular that's 'up to 10 % alcohol .....and I haven't found any fuel
system harm or anything.
I do believe there is less energy in the fuel than in pure gasoline though.
There's a station or two around here that sells premium non-alcohol
gasoline....
never tried it though.

Scott
www.turbovans.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Garratt " <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:06 PM
Subject: FW: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10


> Phill,
> Thanks for the clarification/distinction.
>
> According to the VAG owners manual then, I see it merely states ULP 91
> (minimum) for the Oz WBX 2.1 motor. So by implication, what then is VAG
> NOT telling owners?
> For example, are any of the following points relevant if one chose instead
> to invest in ULP 95 or even ULP 98? ...
>
> ECU can detect & adjust timing accordingly; engine simply operates more
> efficiently; runs cooler; runs cleaner; heads less stressed; achieves more
> kilometres on a tankfull; engine lasts longer; etc. etc.
> Or are some/all of those in the urban myths category also?
>
> Also, despite VAGs apparent seal of approval for E10 in fuel injected post
> 1986 engines, is there then actual contrary "real life, hands on" evidence
> that E10 is/has been deleterious to the Oz WBX 2.1 engine and/or its
> associated system components? TIA. Cheers.
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <plander@optusnet.com.au>
> Sent: Thursday, 22 July 2010 7:14 AM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10
>
>
>
>
> > Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
>
> >
> > I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91 or, to
> > put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't get
> > you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
> >
> >
>
> You are comparing two different things here.
>
> Ethanol has a lower BTU rating than petrol. That means that you must use
> more of it to get the same work done.
>
> Octane is the knock ratiing. Higher octane will allow you to advance the
> ignition timing and increase the compression ratio to make the engine more
> efficient.
>
> E10 causes corrosion problems as it hold water.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
9
Note;
The US 89 is 89 MON. This is equivalent to our 95 RON.

Remember with ethanol you must use more fuel to produce the same power.



> Scott Daniel - Turbovans <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
> re
> "ECU can detect & adjust timing accordingly."
>
> Sorry, can't say that's true for a 2.1 waterboxer ECU/
> it's not 'smart' that way ..
> no knock sensor ...the timing is what it is, based on where it is set
> initially.
> It can not respond to higher octane fuel actually.
>
> In Oregon USA here, we've had gasoline that 'contains up to 10 %
> alcohol
> for about 3 years.
> I always run unleaded regular.
> Octane is 89 I believe.
> works fine.
> if anyone wishes to use higher octane than unleaded regular provides, I
> recommend mid-grade, but never premium.
> and they'll run a little smoother on mid-grade than on regular, granted.
>
> whether that delivers more power or better fuel economy .....'barely' if
> at
> all would be my guess.
>
> 'run cooler' ....'maybe'.... but not that I can tell.
>
> I can't say I pay much attention to what VW may or may not recommend for
>
> Syncro's and T3's ..
> around here they probably couldn't find the............ say, oxygen
> sensor
> on a T3 at the VW dealership ..
> and I'm only exaggerating a little bit. The impression I get is VW
> would
> be happy if they never heard about waterboxer engines, or T3's or
> Syncro's
> ever again.
>
> don't know about your fuel, but here they run decently enough on
> unleaded 89
> octane regular that's 'up to 10 % alcohol .....and I haven't found any
> fuel
> system harm or anything.
> I do believe there is less energy in the fuel than in pure gasoline
> though.
> There's a station or two around here that sells premium non-alcohol
> gasoline....
> never tried it though.
>
> Scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Garratt " <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
> To: <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:06 PM
> Subject: FW: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10
>
>
> > Phill,
> > Thanks for the clarification/distinction.
> >
> > According to the VAG owners manual then, I see it merely states ULP 91
>
> > (minimum) for the Oz WBX 2.1 motor. So by implication, what then is
> VAG
> > NOT telling owners?
> > For example, are any of the following points relevant if one chose
> instead
> > to invest in ULP 95 or even ULP 98? ...
> >
> > ECU can detect & adjust timing accordingly; engine simply operates
> more
> > efficiently; runs cooler; runs cleaner; heads less stressed; achieves
> more
> > kilometres on a tankfull; engine lasts longer; etc. etc.
> > Or are some/all of those in the urban myths category also?
> >
> > Also, despite VAGs apparent seal of approval for E10 in fuel injected
> post
> > 1986 engines, is there then actual contrary "real life, hands on"
> evidence
> > that E10 is/has been deleterious to the Oz WBX 2.1 engine and/or its
> > associated system components? TIA. Cheers.
> > Ken
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <plander@optusnet.com.au>
> > Sent: Thursday, 22 July 2010 7:14 AM
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] re: Ethanol E10
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > I always thought that E10 had less bang for your buck than ULP 91
> or, to
> > > put it another way, for any given volume of fuel, the E10 wouldn't
> get
> > > you as far as ULP 91. Seems not so.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You are comparing two different things here.
> >
> > Ethanol has a lower BTU rating than petrol. That means that you must
> use
> > more of it to get the same work done.
> >
> > Octane is the knock ratiing. Higher octane will allow you to advance
> the
> > ignition timing and increase the compression ratio to make the engine
> more
> > efficient.
> >
> > E10 causes corrosion problems as it hold water.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>