Silly Question Time!!

I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 

 

To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.

Les

 

 

 

Les,

My old bay window had the same firing order as your second drawing.

The first drawing is very foreign to me.

Cheers,

Skot


On 14/09/2014 5:15 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 

 

To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.

Les

 

 

 


Scott, the firing order is the same – 1.4.3.2 –  on all VW horizontally opposed engines.  What is not the same is that the HT leads are reversed on my engine at the moment to what they normally are..  The top drawing is the way they are now and the bottom drawing is the way that I would expect them to be.

The distributor drive shaft has an offset slot and this appears to be 180 degrees out of position, which is why I need to find TDC on the firing stroke of #1 cylinder to understand what is going on and start from scratch.

My question is therefore ‘how do I establish TDC for the firing stroke of #1 cylinder’ – it all starts from there.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 17:26
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!

 

 

Les,

My old bay window had the same firing order as your second drawing.

The first drawing is very foreign to me.

Cheers,

Skot


On 14/09/2014 5:15 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

 

I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 

 

To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.

Les

 

 

 

 

Les just pretend you are still working on the old beetle! The valves will still open and close as you turn the engine over. This is how I do it. Pop both tappet covers off, turn the engine at the alt pulley - 24mm socket on a ratchet. When number 3 (lhf cyl) is rocking, number 1 (rhf cyl) will be on TDC. Align the marks on the crank pulley and you are there. You should find at this point the rotor button lines up with a mark on the top face of the dissy. The slot on the dissy drive is offset so you cant put the dissy in the wrong spot but you can put the drive anywhere you please. It is easy enough to lift the drive and put it in the right spot but you must be VERY carful not to drop the shim that sits under it.

From: "'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2014, 18:18
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!

 
Scott, the firing order is the same – 1.4.3.2 –  on all VW horizontally opposed engines.  What is not the same is that the HT leads are reversed on my engine at the moment to what they normally are..  The top drawing is the way they are now and the bottom drawing is the way that I would expect them to be.
The distributor drive shaft has an offset slot and this appears to be 180 degrees out of position, which is why I need to find TDC on the firing stroke of #1 cylinder to understand what is going on and start from scratch.
My question is therefore ‘how do I establish TDC for the firing stroke of #1 cylinder’ – it all starts from there.
Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 17:26
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!
 
 
Les,

My old bay window had the same firing order as your second drawing.

The first drawing is very foreign to me.

Cheers,

Skot


On 14/09/2014 5:15 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 
I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 
 
To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.
Les
 
 
 
 


Les if the wiring is reversed then the cap is not arrested correctly. Don't get involved with taking the valve covers off not as easy as on the old ones, exhaust is in the way. 
Take off the distributor cap , leave the rotor on turn the engine until rotor shows to cyl one. There is a small cut/indent in the lower distr housing at the same time the mark in the pulley has to be aligned with the case half . You are now at cyl one, right hand side front firing.
Now put cap back making sure that it is arrested properly in the lower part of the distr.
When looking on top of distr it is turning clockwise so the next one to fire is 4 etc just check the wiring, but seeing that you have driven before it is correct for sure, or it would haven't run at all.

If you are installing my spare dizzi, set yours on 1 firing and pull it out , 13mm nut, stick the spare in , turn it on rotor until it sets into the slot, fasten 13mm nut , loosen 8mm nut and set rotor by turning the dizzi to the mark in lower housing. To set the timing follow Bentley for rpm and connection on temp sender.
Hartmut

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Sep 2014, at 6:19 pm, "'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Scott, the firing order is the same – 1.4.3.2 –  on all VW horizontally opposed engines.  What is not the same is that the HT leads are reversed on my engine at the moment to what they normally are..  The top drawing is the way they are now and the bottom drawing is the way that I would expect them to be.

The distributor drive shaft has an offset slot and this appears to be 180 degrees out of position, which is why I need to find TDC on the firing stroke of #1 cylinder to understand what is going on and start from scratch.

My question is therefore ‘how do I establish TDC for the firing stroke of #1 cylinder’ – it all starts from there.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 17:26
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!

 

 

Les,

My old bay window had the same firing order as your second drawing.

The first drawing is very foreign to me.

Cheers,

Skot


On 14/09/2014 5:15 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

 

I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 

<image001.jpg>

 

<image002.jpg>

To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.

Les

 

 

 

 

Sorry Hart but if someone has put the drive in the wrong spot that won't work. The mark on the dissy won't line up. You will need to line it up with where your number one lead is now. If you are substituting a dissy I would suggest leaving the cap and leads on the engine and just swap the body. MARK THE OLD DISSY FIRST.

From: "Hartmut Kiehn hartis@live.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2014, 18:58
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!

 
Les if the wiring is reversed then the cap is not arrested correctly. Don't get involved with taking the valve covers off not as easy as on the old ones, exhaust is in the way. 
Take off the distributor cap , leave the rotor on turn the engine until rotor shows to cyl one. There is a small cut/indent in the lower distr housing at the same time the mark in the pulley has to be aligned with the case half . You are now at cyl one, right hand side front firing.
Now put cap back making sure that it is arrested properly in the lower part of the distr.
When looking on top of distr it is turning clockwise so the next one to fire is 4 etc just check the wiring, but seeing that you have driven before it is correct for sure, or it would haven't run at all.

If you are installing my spare dizzi, set yours on 1 firing and pull it out , 13mm nut, stick the spare in , turn it on rotor until it sets into the slot, fasten 13mm nut , loosen 8mm nut and set rotor by turning the dizzi to the mark in lower housing. To set the timing follow Bentley for rpm and connection on temp sender.
Hartmut

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Sep 2014, at 6:19 pm, "'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Scott, the firing order is the same – 1.4.3.2 –  on all VW horizontally opposed engines.  What is not the same is that the HT leads are reversed on my engine at the moment to what they normally are..  The top drawing is the way they are now and the bottom drawing is the way that I would expect them to be.
The distributor drive shaft has an offset slot and this appears to be 180 degrees out of position, which is why I need to find TDC on the firing stroke of #1 cylinder to understand what is going on and start from scratch.
My question is therefore ‘how do I establish TDC for the firing stroke of #1 cylinder’ – it all starts from there.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 17:26
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!
 
 
Les,

My old bay window had the same firing order as your second drawing.

The first drawing is very foreign to me.

Cheers,

Skot


On 14/09/2014 5:15 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 
I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 
<image001.jpg>
 
<image002.jpg>
To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.
Les
 
 
 
 


Ok Greg , point taken, it's not easy sitting in the lounge container trying to visualise the situation.
However I have mine out by one tooth, I put the rotor on one firing and turned the dissy housing with the mark in line with the rotor. Seems to work . 
But you are right in marking the old one first but I'm afraid that Les has got it out already. 
Hi Les, if you still can't figure it out I can come up , bring a timing light etc and we can work it out ! It's only a 2.5 hr drive from here.
Hart

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Sep 2014, at 7:11 pm, "Greg Esposito gregespo73@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Sorry Hart but if someone has put the drive in the wrong spot that won't work. The mark on the dissy won't line up. You will need to line it up with where your number one lead is now. If you are substituting a dissy I would suggest leaving the cap and leads on the engine and just swap the body. MARK THE OLD DISSY FIRST.

From: "Hartmut Kiehn hartis@live.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2014, 18:58
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!

 
Les if the wiring is reversed then the cap is not arrested correctly. Don't get involved with taking the valve covers off not as easy as on the old ones, exhaust is in the way. 
Take off the distributor cap , leave the rotor on turn the engine until rotor shows to cyl one. There is a small cut/indent in the lower distr housing at the same time the mark in the pulley has to be aligned with the case half . You are now at cyl one, right hand side front firing.
Now put cap back making sure that it is arrested properly in the lower part of the distr.
When looking on top of distr it is turning clockwise so the next one to fire is 4 etc just check the wiring, but seeing that you have driven before it is correct for sure, or it would haven't run at all.

If you are installing my spare dizzi, set yours on 1 firing and pull it out , 13mm nut, stick the spare in , turn it on rotor until it sets into the slot, fasten 13mm nut , loosen 8mm nut and set rotor by turning the dizzi to the mark in lower housing. To set the timing follow Bentley for rpm and connection on temp sender.
Hartmut

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Sep 2014, at 6:19 pm, "'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Scott, the firing order is the same – 1.4.3.2 –  on all VW horizontally opposed engines.  What is not the same is that the HT leads are reversed on my engine at the moment to what they normally are..  The top drawing is the way they are now and the bottom drawing is the way that I would expect them to be.
The distributor drive shaft has an offset slot and this appears to be 180 degrees out of position, which is why I need to find TDC on the firing stroke of #1 cylinder to understand what is going on and start from scratch.
My question is therefore ‘how do I establish TDC for the firing stroke of #1 cylinder’ – it all starts from there.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 September 2014 17:26
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!
 
 
Les,

My old bay window had the same firing order as your second drawing.

The first drawing is very foreign to me.

Cheers,

Skot


On 14/09/2014 5:15 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 
I have finally got to look at my engine and I have encountered something strange with the distributor cap positioning. 
<image001.jpg>
 
<image002.jpg>
To get to understand how this came about, I need to establish TDC for Number 1 cylinder on the firing stroke.  With Ye Olde Air-Cooled Engines, it was simply a matter of wind the engine over until both tappets rattled on No 1 @ TDC and that was it.  I have never had to do this with a hydraulic lifter system so I am not sure where to start.
Les
 
 
 
 


Les, if your engine ran before with the distributor drive dog fitted 180 degrees out, it should still run, indicating the problem is elsewhere.


I used to rotate the drive 180 degrees when carrying out upright fan-housing conversions to retrofit Type 4 motors into beetles and early kombis. No problem.


I have, however, seen engines stop running because the distributor clamp has come loose, allowing the dissie to climb up out of the crankcase far enough for the drive to becoming disengaged. It only has to move upward 6 or 7 mm for this to occur, and is very easily fixed.


First thing to check is whether or not the distributor shaft is rotating when you turn over the engine.


Simplest way to do this without any special tools is disconnect #1 spark plug lead and attach any old spark plug to it, rest it against a good earth, and get someone to turn the motor over with the starter while you check for spark.


If you cable-tie it near the crankshaft pulley, you can check the ignition timing at the same time. 


It is important to fit a new O ring to the distributor shaft, or it will leak. They are the same as those fitted to all the air-cooled engines, so they are not hard to find.


Cheers, Roger Beetle.

#1 fires when the tappets are rocking on #3.

Roger Beetle.

Les. The dissy cap high tension leads on my 2.1 have the same pattern as you currently have now. That is 1 and 3 transposed . 2 and 4 transposed. This resulted when installing a new hall sender some years ago and the dissy was reassembled with the drive dogs 180 degrees out. Easy to do. Probably why yours is also arse about. Harts spare dissy will be correct so you will need to set up the high tension leads in the correct pattern. If the hall sender does turn out to be the problem when rebuilding your dissy be sure they do it with the drive dog in the correct pisition or you will be back to 180 deg out again. Bill
Les. There is note in Bentleys 28.4 under clutch. Large segment points towards notch for rotor in distributor shaft. Bill

Bill,

I am getting there slowly!  I am restricted by a very damaged back and can only do this in short spells.

I have found the TDC notches on the crankshaft pulley and filled the notches with white paint ready for strobe checking.  I have now to determine the #1 cylinder TDC on the firing stroke which then tells me the disposition of the offset slot in the distributor drive shaft.  This will engraved on a stone tablet and mounted to the bull bar!!  Well, engraved in Bentleys anyway.

Hartmut kindly loaned me a known good distributor / Hall sender, so that will go in as soon as the slot orientation has been determined.  Having the HT leads back on the correct side will be a big relief.

The logic of many German manuals (sorry, Joachim, but they can be very obscure at times!) frequently belies their national tendency for exactness and clarity and they seem to forget that in previous manuals they used extremely clear drawings to illustrate the angle of the drive shaft offset slot, such that no words were needed. 

I won’t know until I find the #1 TDC on the firing stroke how the offset slot lies.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 16 September 2014 10:04
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Silly Question Time!!

Les. There is note in Bentleys 28.4 under clutch. Large segment points towards notch for rotor in distributor shaft. Bill

Les and all,

A bit off topic, but anyway:


Am 16.09.2014 08:58, schrieb 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]:

I am restricted by a very damaged back

Very sorry to hear this and honestly hope everything will be back to normal very soon. The syncro 30 years gathering in Berlin next summer is approaching fast. Although no big news on this end at the moment. Will let you all know as soon as something comes up.

The logic of many German manuals (sorry, Joachim, but they can be very obscure at times!) frequently belies their national tendency for exactness and clarity


No worries at all, Les. There are many strange and at times absurd things going on here in Germany ;) And our national tendency also let's us appear as being too cold and unfriendly at times...

and they seem to forget that in previous manuals they used extremely clear drawings to illustrate the angle of the drive shaft offset slot, such that no words were needed. 


As before, should there be anything I can help with, please let me know. Of course you guys use Bentleys, but should a copy of the original German VW repair manual ('Reparaturleitfaden') be of any help (in German of course – but I happen to know somebody with translation skills ;) ), just let me know and I will happily organise a copy of the manual or the relevant pages, translation (of selected pages) included.

Joachim