Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
Cheers.
Cheers.
It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.--- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@yahoo.com.au> wrote: |
Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive... cheerio Hart
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive... cheerio Hart
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.--- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@yahoo.com.au> wrote: |
Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...--- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@live.com.au> wrote: |
On the topic of seeping coolant, does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak products such as this one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
> Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
> One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive...  cheerio  Hart
> Â
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
>
>
> Â
>
> Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
> Cheers.
>
Sam,
I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type of product, depending upon individual vehicle repair circumstances, keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.
I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and my mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it fixed it no problem. Never had a problem since.
On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products may contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a radiator repairman.
Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and went through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was worth considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I guess one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.
Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product? Probably not.
Sorry Sam, probably not much help.
Cheers.
ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: me@samarnold.org
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: me@samarnold.org
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
On the topic of seeping coolant, does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak products such as this one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
> Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
> One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive...  cheerio  Hart
> Â
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
>
>
> Â
>
> Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
> Cheers.
>
| Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home method". Re the Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between your leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head gaskets is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or both. No amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to look after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it properly, that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the engine you don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells you, yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there goodwill budget. Greg E --- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
|
Greg,
Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next failure.
Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt beforehand. In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over big red.
When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way.
You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting a Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.
Cheers and thanks for your response.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
| Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home method". Re the Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between your leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head gaskets is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or both. No amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to look after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it properly, that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the engine you don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells you, yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there goodwill budget. Greg E --- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
|
hi all,
re
When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a
long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no
opinion either way."
I sure have an opinion !
it's a totally dumb design.
it's amazing they last as well as they do.
it's 'dumb' because ..
look at what every other manufacture does ..
combustion sealing and coolant sealing take place on one plane..
like any conventional cylinder head and gasket.
on the waterboxer ..the two sealings are done separately ..
becuase it is an adapted air-cooled design.
the head still sits on top of the barrle with metal sealing rings ..just
like in an old VW Bug ..
the head reaches down around the barrel about 10mm to help keep things in
place..
all fine and dandy.
then ....VW just extended the air-cooled design block up so there are water
jackets..
and that sealing ..
the outer rubber water-retention gasket is on a different plane than the
combustion sealing is ..
so they can't just use a good old fasioned flat headgasket.
and ...this is the real joke part ..how well the outer rubber water gasket
is compressed to seal ..is determined by how far down over the barrels the heads
fit ..
I have seen many that squease the outer rubber gasket too much and it gets
pinched and split ..then it leaks in a few years..
or the opposite .......that qasket isn't squesed enough ..and it seeps
after a few years. ..though that is rather rare.
and I have seen a brand new AMC head fit so that it's tilted sitting on the
barrlss ..
so the outer rubber gasket is pinched on one end and not compressed enogh
on the other.
'usually' the outer water gasket gap is about right .
It's smart to install the bare head ( with metal rings on top of the
barrels ) and measure that gap ..
when I first discovered this problem in the 90's ..
in my research and talking to everyone about why gaskets on a new head only
lasted about a year ..
finally ..
a VW dealer tech told me ...you install the bare head, meausre that gap
.
and it it's too small ( or too big ) try another head !!!
at which I really threw up my hands and knew it wasn't my workmanship that
was any cause ..
since the notion 'standardized' car parts dates from the late teens
in the US I believe. Prior to that each car was indiviudallty fitted,
piece to piece.
It was a big deal when they drove 3 Buicks I think..to a New York
Expo kind of event..
tore them all apart, mixed up all the parts ..and put them back together
and they all ran and worked..
so ...the idea that one head might fit right and another not ..is just a
pure joke.
In practice though ..
we manage to live with them and they work well enough ..usually.
I see lot of corrosion on T3 vans here in the Western US ..and this is a
nice environment too ..
but corrosion happens ..
especially inside the engine in the coolant.
You can't change coolant too often on a waterboxer engien that is 20 years
old.
so when I hear....'my heads have been on 240,000 miles with no problems '
..
I get very nervous.
About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of, and
not have..
is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.
Rare .but it happens..
and it very serious to correct or deal with.
the way the nuts feel unscewing them is just nervous feeling ..
before they start to unscrew, the stud under it twists quite a bit ...then
finally the nuts breaks loose and unscrews , usually.
if the nut is corroded..
or worse..the stud is weakened down in the case due to corrosion you can be
in big trouble.
so ....delaying addressing it, if there is corrosion at all.........can
only allow it to get worse.
If it's a 'keeper' van ..
deal with it now, or at a convenient time soon, rather than put it off for
a long time.
as for the barrels getting stuck in the heads ..that does happen
sometimes...corrosion is a factor.
There are bumps on the outside of the barrels placed there specifically for
prying them out of the heads with a bar ...that works nicely. Usually is
not a problem there.
( I did have one set of Brazilina 1.9 pistons and barrels where the barrels
fit much, much too tightly into the cylinders ..had to hone those to fit right
.....hand lap them in ...
hopefully your barrels will separate from the cylinders nicely ..the usualy
do. )
there can be pretty bad pitting at the rubber gasket surface on the head (
oh ..
only saw this once..but I recently say a waterboxer head removed and there
was a chunk of the engine case missing from corrosion ! ..it was either JB weld
there and hope..
or another engine. ..usally just the heads are pitted or corrodded. )
if they are ..
just resurfacing the bottom of the head like a normal head..
it not really a viable repair.
the 'step distance' between where the metal rings sit in the combustion
chambers and the flat bottom of the head has to be about right ..since that
distance determines how well or not well the outer rubber gasket is
compressed.
'normal machine' shops can not address that so easily ..since their
reference point for surfacing the bottom of a head is the top of it ..the valve
cover surface..
......which is not what that distance is referenced from ..it's referenced
from the combustion chambers ..
where the metal rings fit.
anway ..
the sooner a leaky head gakset is dealt with ..generally ..the better.
and I also have a valve job done too.
it's common on the 2.1 for the exhaust valves to be leaking a little.
scott
Oregon, USA
----- Original Message -----From: Ken GarrattSent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:21 PMSubject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.Greg,
Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next failure.Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt beforehand. In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over big red.When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way.You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting a Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.Cheers and thanks for your response.KenTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home method". Re the Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between your leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head gaskets is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or both. No amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to look after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it properly, that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the engine you don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells you, yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there goodwill budget. Greg E
--- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 12:50 AM
Sam,
I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type of product, depending upon individual vehicle repair circumstances, keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and my mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it fixed it no problem. Never had a problem since.On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products may contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a radiator repairman.Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and went through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was worth considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I guess one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product? Probably not.Sorry Sam, probably not much help.Cheers.ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: me@samarnold.org
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
On the topic of seeping coolant, does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak products such as this one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
> Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
> One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive...  cheerio  Hart
> Â
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
>
>
> Â
>
> Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
> Cheers.
>
i think that the head studs are a problem on the vw
motor in that they tend to corrode which causes the head problems water
leaks if this has happened think about using stainless steel
replacment studs
bob
----- Original Message -----From: Scott Daniel - TurbovansSent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 9:42 AMSubject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
hi all,reWhen it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way."I sure have an opinion !it's a totally dumb design.it's amazing they last as well as they do.it's 'dumb' because ..look at what every other manufacture does ..combustion sealing and coolant sealing take place on one plane..like any conventional cylinder head and gasket.on the waterboxer ..the two sealings are done separately ..becuase it is an adapted air-cooled design.the head still sits on top of the barrle with metal sealing rings ..just like in an old VW Bug ..the head reaches down around the barrel about 10mm to help keep things in place..all fine and dandy.then ....VW just extended the air-cooled design block up so there are water jackets..and that sealing ..the outer rubber water-retention gasket is on a different plane than the combustion sealing is ..so they can't just use a good old fasioned flat headgasket.and ...this is the real joke part ..how well the outer rubber water gasket is compressed to seal ..is determined by how far down over the barrels the heads fit ..I have seen many that squease the outer rubber gasket too much and it gets pinched and split ..then it leaks in a few years..or the opposite .......that qasket isn't squesed enough ..and it seeps after a few years. ..though that is rather rare.and I have seen a brand new AMC head fit so that it's tilted sitting on the barrlss ..so the outer rubber gasket is pinched on one end and not compressed enogh on the other.'usually' the outer water gasket gap is about right .It's smart to install the bare head ( with metal rings on top of the barrels ) and measure that gap ..when I first discovered this problem in the 90's ..in my research and talking to everyone about why gaskets on a new head only lasted about a year ..finally ..a VW dealer tech told me ...you install the bare head, meausre that gap .and it it's too small ( or too big ) try another head !!!at which I really threw up my hands and knew it wasn't my workmanship that was any cause ..since the notion 'standardized' car parts dates from the late teens in the US I believe. Prior to that each car was indiviudallty fitted, piece to piece.It was a big deal when they drove 3 Buicks I think..to a New York Expo kind of event..tore them all apart, mixed up all the parts ..and put them back together and they all ran and worked..so ...the idea that one head might fit right and another not ..is just a pure joke.In practice though ..we manage to live with them and they work well enough ..usually.I see lot of corrosion on T3 vans here in the Western US ..and this is a nice environment too ..but corrosion happens ..especially inside the engine in the coolant.You can't change coolant too often on a waterboxer engien that is 20 years old.so when I hear....'my heads have been on 240,000 miles with no problems ' ..I get very nervous.About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of, and not have..is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.Rare .but it happens..and it very serious to correct or deal with.the way the nuts feel unscewing them is just nervous feeling ..before they start to unscrew, the stud under it twists quite a bit ...then finally the nuts breaks loose and unscrews , usually.if the nut is corroded..or worse..the stud is weakened down in the case due to corrosion you can be in big trouble.so ....delaying addressing it, if there is corrosion at all.........can only allow it to get worse.If it's a 'keeper' van ..deal with it now, or at a convenient time soon, rather than put it off for a long time.as for the barrels getting stuck in the heads ..that does happen sometimes...corrosion is a factor.There are bumps on the outside of the barrels placed there specifically for prying them out of the heads with a bar ...that works nicely. Usually is not a problem there.( I did have one set of Brazilina 1.9 pistons and barrels where the barrels fit much, much too tightly into the cylinders ..had to hone those to fit right .....hand lap them in ...hopefully your barrels will separate from the cylinders nicely ..the usualy do. )there can be pretty bad pitting at the rubber gasket surface on the head ( oh ..only saw this once..but I recently say a waterboxer head removed and there was a chunk of the engine case missing from corrosion ! ..it was either JB weld there and hope..or another engine. ..usally just the heads are pitted or corrodded. )if they are ..just resurfacing the bottom of the head like a normal head..it not really a viable repair.the 'step distance' between where the metal rings sit in the combustion chambers and the flat bottom of the head has to be about right ..since that distance determines how well or not well the outer rubber gasket is compressed.'normal machine' shops can not address that so easily ..since their reference point for surfacing the bottom of a head is the top of it ..the valve cover surface........which is not what that distance is referenced from ..it's referenced from the combustion chambers ..where the metal rings fit.anway ..the sooner a leaky head gakset is dealt with ..generally ..the better.and I also have a valve job done too.it's common on the 2.1 for the exhaust valves to be leaking a little.scottOregon, USA----- Original Message -----From: Ken GarrattSent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:21 PMSubject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.Greg,
Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next failure.Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt beforehand. In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over big red.When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way.You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting a Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.Cheers and thanks for your response.KenTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home method". Re the Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between your leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head gaskets is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or both. No amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to look after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it properly, that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the engine you don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells you, yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there goodwill budget. Greg E
--- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 12:50 AM
Sam,
I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type of product, depending upon individual vehicle repair circumstances, keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and my mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it fixed it no problem. Never had a problem since.On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products may contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a radiator repairman.Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and went through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was worth considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I guess one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product? Probably not.Sorry Sam, probably not much help.Cheers.ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: me@samarnold.org
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
On the topic of seeping coolant, does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak products such as this one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
> Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
> One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive...  cheerio  Hart
> Â
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
>
>
> Â
>
> Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
> Cheers.
>
Scott,
If you're trying to frighten us, you've succeeded! ... haha
Its not an easy decision to make, having the engine pulled and inspected by "experts" and probably overhauled while its out, purely on the basis that one should check the head studs.
I concede, it's an issue I lose sleep on every other night. Unfortunately I'm well versed in procrastination. Does crossing ones fingers help?
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:42:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:42:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
hi all,
re
When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a
long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no
opinion either way."
I sure have an opinion !
it's a totally dumb design.
it's amazing they last as well as they do.
it's 'dumb' because ..
look at what every other manufacture does ..
combustion sealing and coolant sealing take place on one plane..
like any conventional cylinder head and gasket.
on the waterboxer ..the two sealings are done separately ..
becuase it is an adapted air-cooled design.
the head still sits on top of the barrle with metal sealing rings ..just
like in an old VW Bug ..
the head reaches down around the barrel about 10mm to help keep things in
place..
all fine and dandy.
then ....VW just extended the air-cooled design block up so there are water
jackets..
and that sealing ..
the outer rubber water-retention gasket is on a different plane than the
combustion sealing is ..
so they can't just use a good old fasioned flat headgasket.
and ...this is the real joke part ..how well the outer rubber water gasket
is compressed to seal ..is determined by how far down over the barrels the heads
fit ..
I have seen many that squease the outer rubber gasket too much and it gets
pinched and split ..then it leaks in a few years..
or the opposite .......that qasket isn't squesed enough ..and it seeps
after a few years. ..though that is rather rare.
and I have seen a brand new AMC head fit so that it's tilted sitting on the
barrlss ..
so the outer rubber gasket is pinched on one end and not compressed enogh
on the other.
'usually' the outer water gasket gap is about right .
It's smart to install the bare head ( with metal rings on top of the
barrels ) and measure that gap ..
when I first discovered this problem in the 90's ..
in my research and talking to everyone about why gaskets on a new head only
lasted about a year ..
finally ..
a VW dealer tech told me ...you install the bare head, meausre that gap
.
and it it's too small ( or too big ) try another head !!!
at which I really threw up my hands and knew it wasn't my workmanship that
was any cause ..
since the notion 'standardized' car parts dates from the late teens
in the US I believe. Prior to that each car was indiviudallty fitted,
piece to piece.
It was a big deal when they drove 3 Buicks I think..to a New York
Expo kind of event..
tore them all apart, mixed up all the parts ..and put them back together
and they all ran and worked..
so ...the idea that one head might fit right and another not ..is just a
pure joke.
In practice though ..
we manage to live with them and they work well enough ..usually.
I see lot of corrosion on T3 vans here in the Western US ..and this is a
nice environment too ..
but corrosion happens ..
especially inside the engine in the coolant.
You can't change coolant too often on a waterboxer engien that is 20 years
old.
so when I hear....'my heads have been on 240,000 miles with no problems '
..
I get very nervous.
About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of, and
not have..
is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.
Rare .but it happens..
and it very serious to correct or deal with.
the way the nuts feel unscewing them is just nervous feeling ..
before they start to unscrew, the stud under it twists quite a bit ...then
finally the nuts breaks loose and unscrews , usually.
if the nut is corroded..
or worse..the stud is weakened down in the case due to corrosion you can be
in big trouble.
so ....delaying addressing it, if there is corrosion at all.........can
only allow it to get worse.
If it's a 'keeper' van ..
deal with it now, or at a convenient time soon, rather than put it off for
a long time.
as for the barrels getting stuck in the heads ..that does happen
sometimes...corrosion is a factor.
There are bumps on the outside of the barrels placed there specifically for
prying them out of the heads with a bar ...that works nicely. Usually is
not a problem there.
( I did have one set of Brazilina 1.9 pistons and barrels where the barrels
fit much, much too tightly into the cylinders ..had to hone those to fit right
.....hand lap them in ...
hopefully your barrels will separate from the cylinders nicely ..the usualy
do. )
there can be pretty bad pitting at the rubber gasket surface on the head (
oh ..
only saw this once..but I recently say a waterboxer head removed and there
was a chunk of the engine case missing from corrosion ! ..it was either JB weld
there and hope..
or another engine. ..usally just the heads are pitted or corrodded. )
if they are ..
just resurfacing the bottom of the head like a normal head..
it not really a viable repair.
the 'step distance' between where the metal rings sit in the combustion
chambers and the flat bottom of the head has to be about right ..since that
distance determines how well or not well the outer rubber gasket is
compressed.
'normal machine' shops can not address that so easily ..since their
reference point for surfacing the bottom of a head is the top of it ..the valve
cover surface..
......which is not what that distance is referenced from ..it's referenced
from the combustion chambers ..
where the metal rings fit.
anway ..
the sooner a leaky head gakset is dealt with ..generally ..the better.
and I also have a valve job done too.
it's common on the 2.1 for the exhaust valves to be leaking a little.
scott
Oregon, USA
----- Original Message -----From: Ken GarrattSent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:21 PMSubject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.Greg,Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next failure.Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt beforehand. In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over big red.When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way.You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting a Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.Cheers and thanks for your response.KenTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home method". Re the Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between your leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head gaskets is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or both. No amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to look after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it properly, that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the engine you don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells you, yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there goodwill budget. Greg E
--- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 12:50 AM
Sam,
I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type of product, depending upon individual vehicle repair circumstances, keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and my mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it fixed it no problem. Never had a problem since.On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products may contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a radiator repairman.Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and went through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was worth considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I guess one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product? Probably not.Sorry Sam, probably not much help.Cheers.ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: me@samarnold.org
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
On the topic of seeping coolant, does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak products such as this one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
> Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
> One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive...  cheerio  Hart
> Â
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
> Â
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
>
>
> Â
>
> Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
> Cheers.
>
The head stud problem appears to be more common in Australia than anywhere else.
I think that a lot of Aussies are putting tap water in with the coolant.
Phill
I think that a lot of Aussies are putting tap water in with the coolant.
Phill
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Scott,If you're trying to frighten us, you've succeeded! ... hahaIts not
> an easy decision to make, having the engine pulled and inspected by
> "experts" and probably overhauled while its out, purely on the basis
> that one should check the head studs.I concede, it's an issue I lose
> sleep on every other night. Unfortunately I'm well versed in
> procrastination. Does crossing ones fingers help?Cheers.Ken
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:42:37 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> hi all,
> re
>
> When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for
> a
> long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I
> have no
> opinion either way."
>
> I sure have an opinion !
> it's a totally dumb design.
> it's amazing they last as well as they do.
>
> it's 'dumb' because ..
> look at what every other manufacture does ..
> combustion sealing and coolant sealing take place on one plane..
> like any conventional cylinder head and gasket.
>
> on the waterboxer ..the two sealings are done separately ..
> becuase it is an adapted air-cooled design.
> the head still sits on top of the barrle with metal sealing rings ..just
>
> like in an old VW Bug ..
> the head reaches down around the barrel about 10mm to help keep things
> in
> place..
> all fine and dandy.
> then ....VW just extended the air-cooled design block up so there are
> water
> jackets..
> and that sealing ..
> the outer rubber water-retention gasket is on a different plane than the
>
> combustion sealing is ..
> so they can't just use a good old fasioned flat headgasket.
>
> and ...this is the real joke part ..how well the outer rubber water
> gasket
> is compressed to seal ..is determined by how far down over the barrels
> the heads
> fit ..
> I have seen many that squease the outer rubber gasket too much and it
> gets
> pinched and split ..then it leaks in a few years..
> or the opposite .......that qasket isn't squesed enough ..and it seeps
> after a few years. ..though that is rather rare.
> and I have seen a brand new AMC head fit so that it's tilted sitting on
> the
> barrlss ..
> so the outer rubber gasket is pinched on one end and not compressed
> enogh
> on the other.
>
> 'usually' the outer water gasket gap is about right .
> It's smart to install the bare head ( with metal rings on top of the
> barrels ) and measure that gap ..
> when I first discovered this problem in the 90's ..
> in my research and talking to everyone about why gaskets on a new head
> only
> lasted about a year ..
> finally ..
> a VW dealer tech told me ...you install the bare head, meausre that gap
> .
> and it it's too small ( or too big ) try another head !!!
>
> at which I really threw up my hands and knew it wasn't my workmanship
> that
> was any cause ..
> since the notion 'standardized' car parts dates from the late teens
> in the US I believe. Prior to that each car was indiviudallty fitted,
> piece to piece.
> It was a big deal when they drove 3 Buicks I think..to a New York
> Expo kind of event..
> tore them all apart, mixed up all the parts ..and put them back together
>
> and they all ran and worked..
>
> so ...the idea that one head might fit right and another not ..is just a
>
> pure joke.
> In practice though ..
> we manage to live with them and they work well enough ..usually.
>
> I see lot of corrosion on T3 vans here in the Western US ..and this is a
>
> nice environment too ..
> but corrosion happens ..
> especially inside the engine in the coolant.
> You can't change coolant too often on a waterboxer engien that is 20
> years
> old.
>
> so when I hear....'my heads have been on 240,000 miles with no problems
> '
> ..
> I get very nervous.
> About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of,
> and
> not have..
> is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.
> Rare .but it happens..
> and it very serious to correct or deal with.
> the way the nuts feel unscewing them is just nervous feeling ..
> before they start to unscrew, the stud under it twists quite a bit
> ...then
> finally the nuts breaks loose and unscrews , usually.
> if the nut is corroded..
> or worse..the stud is weakened down in the case due to corrosion you can
> be
> in big trouble.
>
> so ....delaying addressing it, if there is corrosion at all.........can
> only allow it to get worse.
> If it's a 'keeper' van ..
> deal with it now, or at a convenient time soon, rather than put it off
> for
> a long time.
>
> as for the barrels getting stuck in the heads ..that does happen
> sometimes...corrosion is a factor.
> There are bumps on the outside of the barrels placed there specifically
> for
> prying them out of the heads with a bar ...that works nicely. Usually
> is
> not a problem there.
>
> ( I did have one set of Brazilina 1.9 pistons and barrels where the
> barrels
> fit much, much too tightly into the cylinders ..had to hone those to fit
> right
> .....hand lap them in ...
> hopefully your barrels will separate from the cylinders nicely ..the
> usualy
> do. )
>
> there can be pretty bad pitting at the rubber gasket surface on the head
> (
> oh ..
> only saw this once..but I recently say a waterboxer head removed and
> there
> was a chunk of the engine case missing from corrosion ! ..it was either
> JB weld
> there and hope..
> or another engine. ..usally just the heads are pitted or corrodded. )
>
> if they are ..
> just resurfacing the bottom of the head like a normal head..
> it not really a viable repair.
> the 'step distance' between where the metal rings sit in the combustion
> chambers and the flat bottom of the head has to be about right ..since
> that
> distance determines how well or not well the outer rubber gasket is
> compressed.
> 'normal machine' shops can not address that so easily ..since their
> reference point for surfacing the bottom of a head is the top of it
> ..the valve
> cover surface..
> ......which is not what that distance is referenced from ..it's
> referenced
> from the combustion chambers ..
> where the metal rings fit.
>
> anway ..
> the sooner a leaky head gakset is dealt with ..generally ..the better.
>
> and I also have a valve job done too.
> it's common on the 2.1 for the exhaust valves to be leaking a little.
>
> scott
> www.turbovans.com
> Oregon, USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Ken
> Garratt
> To: Syncro _T3_Australia
> forum
> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:21
> PM
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re:
> Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
>
>
> Greg,
>
>
>
> Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't
> necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next
> failure.
>
>
> Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most
> likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt
> beforehand.
> In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over
> big
> red.
>
>
> When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around
> for
> a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well
> qualified. I
> have no opinion either way.
>
>
>
> You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting
> a
> Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.
>
>
> Cheers and thanks for your response.
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From:
> gregespo73@yahoo.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
> Subject: RE:
> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head
> gasket.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such
> products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home
> method". Re the
> Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between
> your
> leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head
> gaskets
> is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or
> both. No
> amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to
> look
> after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it
> properly,
> that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the
> engine you
> don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in
> landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned
> parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells
> you,
> yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there
> goodwill
> budget. Greg E
>
> --- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken
> Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From:
> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE:
> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To:
> "Syncro _T3_Australia forum"
> <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Tuesday, 12
> April, 2011, 12:50 AM
>
>
>
>
> Sam,
>
>
> I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type
> of
> product, depending upon individual vehicle repair
> circumstances,
> keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.
> I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and
> my
> mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it
> fixed it
> no problem. Never had a problem since.
> On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products
> may
> contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a
> radiator
> repairman.
>
>
> Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump
>
> shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and
> went
> through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was
> worth
> considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I
> guess
> one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.
>
>
> Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product?
> Probably not.
>
>
> Sorry Sam, probably not much help.
>
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> ken
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From:
> me@samarnold.org
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
> Subject:
> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head
> gasket.
>
>
>
>
> On the topic of seeping coolant,
> does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak
> products
> such as this one here:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPage
> Name=STRK:MEWAX:IT
>
> ?
>
>
> Sam
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com,
> greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
> >
> > Could not
> agree more Hart.�� The subject is so big I have left out a
> thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
> >
> > --- On
> Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
> >
> >
>
> > From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> > Subject: RE:
> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> > To:
> "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> >
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
> >
> >
> >
> ��
> >
> >
> >
> > Greg, just heads off ????
> But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being
> welded on
> with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you
> are in
> the thick of it....
> > Done it recently,�� ended up doing a
> complete top end overhaul.
> > One way or the other, the job has
> to be done as you say it will get worse and more
> expensive...�� �� cheerio�� �� Hart
> >
> ��
> >
> >
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > From:
> gregespo73@...
> > Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> >
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head
> gasket.
> >
> > ��
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> > It will only get worse. At minimum you need
> heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have
> lots of
> kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
> >
> > --- On
> Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: richardnicholls74
> <richardnicholls74@...>
> > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
> Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Received:
> Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
> >
> >
> > ��
>
> >
> > Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and
> block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i
> take
> action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect
> it has
> been like it for some time?
> > Cheers.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
One of the principal roles of the coolant is to prevent the studs from corroding through.
I have seen MV engines run on tap water in which ALL of the studs have corroded down to next to nothing. For the sake of saving a few dollars on the correct coolant, the cost is many thousands of dollars!!
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of plander@optusnet.com.au
Sent: 12 April 2011 11:28
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
The head stud problem appears to be more common in Australia than anywhere else.
I think that a lot of Aussies are putting tap water in with the coolant.
Phill
Not just the coolant, but the water,
Phill
Phill
> Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> One of the principal roles of the coolant is to prevent the studs from
> corroding through.
>
> I have seen MV engines run on tap water in which ALL of the studs have
> corroded down to next to nothing. For the sake of saving a few dollars
> on
> the correct coolant, the cost is many thousands of dollars!!
>
> Les
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> plander@optusnet.com.au
> Sent: 12 April 2011 11:28
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head
> gasket.
>
>
>
> The head stud problem appears to be more common in Australia than
> anywhere
> else.
>
>
>
> I think that a lot of Aussies are putting tap water in with the coolant.
>
>
>
> Phill
> About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of,Very, very common in Australia.
> and not have..is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.
> Rare .but it happens..
Putting it the other way round - what kilometers could we expect from a properly serviced WBX engine run on the correct coolant which has been regularly changed.(And only used by a little old man to go to church via Cape York Peninsular)
My camper has just clocked over the 200,000K and has never run better -am I living in a fool's paradise or should I be very very scared?
Roger
|
I have used tap water mixed 50/50 with anti-frz in california, oregon, and
washington for the last 40 years or so in all kinds of cars.
Never a problem from doing that.
I also add water soluble machinist's cutting oil..
just a half cup or so ..as a w. pump lubricant and rust inhibitor.
works really well.
washington for the last 40 years or so in all kinds of cars.
Never a problem from doing that.
I also add water soluble machinist's cutting oil..
just a half cup or so ..as a w. pump lubricant and rust inhibitor.
works really well.
----- Original Message -----
From: <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> The head stud problem appears to be more common in Australia than anywhere
> else.
>
> I think that a lot of Aussies are putting tap water in with the coolant.
>
> Phill
>
>
>
>> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Scott,If you're trying to frighten us, you've succeeded! ... hahaIts not
>> an easy decision to make, having the engine pulled and inspected by
>> "experts" and probably overhauled while its out, purely on the basis
>> that one should check the head studs.I concede, it's an issue I lose
>> sleep on every other night. Unfortunately I'm well versed in
>> procrastination. Does crossing ones fingers help?Cheers.Ken
>> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> From: ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
>> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:42:37 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> hi all,
>> re
>>
>> When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for
>> a
>> long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I
>> have no
>> opinion either way."
>>
>> I sure have an opinion !
>> it's a totally dumb design.
>> it's amazing they last as well as they do.
>>
>> it's 'dumb' because ..
>> look at what every other manufacture does ..
>> combustion sealing and coolant sealing take place on one plane..
>> like any conventional cylinder head and gasket.
>>
>> on the waterboxer ..the two sealings are done separately ..
>> becuase it is an adapted air-cooled design.
>> the head still sits on top of the barrle with metal sealing rings ..just
>>
>> like in an old VW Bug ..
>> the head reaches down around the barrel about 10mm to help keep things
>> in
>> place..
>> all fine and dandy.
>> then ....VW just extended the air-cooled design block up so there are
>> water
>> jackets..
>> and that sealing ..
>> the outer rubber water-retention gasket is on a different plane than the
>>
>> combustion sealing is ..
>> so they can't just use a good old fasioned flat headgasket.
>>
>> and ...this is the real joke part ..how well the outer rubber water
>> gasket
>> is compressed to seal ..is determined by how far down over the barrels
>> the heads
>> fit ..
>> I have seen many that squease the outer rubber gasket too much and it
>> gets
>> pinched and split ..then it leaks in a few years..
>> or the opposite .......that qasket isn't squesed enough ..and it seeps
>> after a few years. ..though that is rather rare.
>> and I have seen a brand new AMC head fit so that it's tilted sitting on
>> the
>> barrlss ..
>> so the outer rubber gasket is pinched on one end and not compressed
>> enogh
>> on the other.
>>
>> 'usually' the outer water gasket gap is about right .
>> It's smart to install the bare head ( with metal rings on top of the
>> barrels ) and measure that gap ..
>> when I first discovered this problem in the 90's ..
>> in my research and talking to everyone about why gaskets on a new head
>> only
>> lasted about a year ..
>> finally ..
>> a VW dealer tech told me ...you install the bare head, meausre that gap
>> .
>> and it it's too small ( or too big ) try another head !!!
>>
>> at which I really threw up my hands and knew it wasn't my workmanship
>> that
>> was any cause ..
>> since the notion 'standardized' car parts dates from the late teens
>> in the US I believe. Prior to that each car was indiviudallty fitted,
>> piece to piece.
>> It was a big deal when they drove 3 Buicks I think..to a New York
>> Expo kind of event..
>> tore them all apart, mixed up all the parts ..and put them back together
>>
>> and they all ran and worked..
>>
>> so ...the idea that one head might fit right and another not ..is just a
>>
>> pure joke.
>> In practice though ..
>> we manage to live with them and they work well enough ..usually.
>>
>> I see lot of corrosion on T3 vans here in the Western US ..and this is a
>>
>> nice environment too ..
>> but corrosion happens ..
>> especially inside the engine in the coolant.
>> You can't change coolant too often on a waterboxer engien that is 20
>> years
>> old.
>>
>> so when I hear....'my heads have been on 240,000 miles with no problems
>> '
>> ..
>> I get very nervous.
>> About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of,
>> and
>> not have..
>> is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.
>> Rare .but it happens..
>> and it very serious to correct or deal with.
>> the way the nuts feel unscewing them is just nervous feeling ..
>> before they start to unscrew, the stud under it twists quite a bit
>> ...then
>> finally the nuts breaks loose and unscrews , usually.
>> if the nut is corroded..
>> or worse..the stud is weakened down in the case due to corrosion you can
>> be
>> in big trouble.
>>
>> so ....delaying addressing it, if there is corrosion at all.........can
>> only allow it to get worse.
>> If it's a 'keeper' van ..
>> deal with it now, or at a convenient time soon, rather than put it off
>> for
>> a long time.
>>
>> as for the barrels getting stuck in the heads ..that does happen
>> sometimes...corrosion is a factor.
>> There are bumps on the outside of the barrels placed there specifically
>> for
>> prying them out of the heads with a bar ...that works nicely. Usually
>> is
>> not a problem there.
>>
>> ( I did have one set of Brazilina 1.9 pistons and barrels where the
>> barrels
>> fit much, much too tightly into the cylinders ..had to hone those to fit
>> right
>> .....hand lap them in ...
>> hopefully your barrels will separate from the cylinders nicely ..the
>> usualy
>> do. )
>>
>> there can be pretty bad pitting at the rubber gasket surface on the head
>> (
>> oh ..
>> only saw this once..but I recently say a waterboxer head removed and
>> there
>> was a chunk of the engine case missing from corrosion ! ..it was either
>> JB weld
>> there and hope..
>> or another engine. ..usally just the heads are pitted or corrodded. )
>>
>> if they are ..
>> just resurfacing the bottom of the head like a normal head..
>> it not really a viable repair.
>> the 'step distance' between where the metal rings sit in the combustion
>> chambers and the flat bottom of the head has to be about right ..since
>> that
>> distance determines how well or not well the outer rubber gasket is
>> compressed.
>> 'normal machine' shops can not address that so easily ..since their
>> reference point for surfacing the bottom of a head is the top of it
>> ..the valve
>> cover surface..
>> ......which is not what that distance is referenced from ..it's
>> referenced
>> from the combustion chambers ..
>> where the metal rings fit.
>>
>> anway ..
>> the sooner a leaky head gakset is dealt with ..generally ..the better.
>>
>> and I also have a valve job done too.
>> it's common on the 2.1 for the exhaust valves to be leaking a little.
>>
>> scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>> Oregon, USA
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:
>> Ken
>> Garratt
>> To: Syncro _T3_Australia
>> forum
>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:21
>> PM
>> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re:
>> Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't
>> necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next
>> failure.
>>
>>
>> Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most
>> likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt
>> beforehand.
>> In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over
>> big
>> red.
>>
>>
>> When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around
>> for
>> a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well
>> qualified. I
>> have no opinion either way.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting
>> a
>> Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.
>>
>>
>> Cheers and thanks for your response.
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> From:
>> gregespo73@yahoo.com
>> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
>> Subject: RE:
>> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head
>> gasket.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such
>> products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home
>> method". Re the
>> Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between
>> your
>> leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head
>> gaskets
>> is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or
>> both. No
>> amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to
>> look
>> after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it
>> properly,
>> that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the
>> engine you
>> don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in
>> landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned
>> parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells
>> you,
>> yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there
>> goodwill
>> budget. Greg E
>>
>> --- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken
>> Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From:
>> Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
>> Subject: RE:
>> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>> To:
>> "Syncro _T3_Australia forum"
>> <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
>> Received: Tuesday, 12
>> April, 2011, 12:50 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sam,
>>
>>
>> I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type
>> of
>> product, depending upon individual vehicle repair
>> circumstances,
>> keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.
>> I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and
>> my
>> mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it
>> fixed it
>> no problem. Never had a problem since.
>> On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products
>> may
>> contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a
>> radiator
>> repairman.
>>
>>
>> Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump
>>
>> shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and
>> went
>> through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was
>> worth
>> considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I
>> guess
>> one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.
>>
>>
>> Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product?
>> Probably not.
>>
>>
>> Sorry Sam, probably not much help.
>>
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>>
>> ken
>>
>>
>>
>> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> From:
>> me@samarnold.org
>> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
>> Subject:
>> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head
>> gasket.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On the topic of seeping coolant,
>> does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak
>> products
>> such as this one here:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPage
>> Name=STRK:MEWAX:IT
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com,
>> greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Could not
>> agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a
>> thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>> >
>> > --- On
>> Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
>> > Subject: RE:
>> [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>> > To:
>> "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
>> >
>> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Â
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Greg, just heads off ????
>> But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being
>> welded on
>> with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you
>> are in
>> the thick of it....
>> > Done it recently, ended up doing a
>> complete top end overhaul.
>> > One way or the other, the job has
>> to be done as you say it will get worse and more
>> expensive...  cheerio  Hart
>> >
>> Â
>> >
>> >
>> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> > From:
>> gregespo73@...
>> > Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head
>> gasket.
>> >
>> > Â
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > It will only get worse. At minimum you need
>> heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have
>> lots of
>> kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
>> >
>> > --- On
>> Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: richardnicholls74
>> <richardnicholls74@...>
>> > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
>> Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> > Received:
>> Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
>> >
>> >
>> > Â
>>
>> >
>> > Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and
>> block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i
>> take
>> action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect
>> it has
>> been like it for some time?
>> > Cheers.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
hi..
then try something else.
you're not talking about just straight water are you ?
just plain water is the worst thing to run in any cooling system.
it has to be 50/50 water-antifrz all year round..
even if it's always summer or whatever ..
sure anti-frz is for protection from freezing ..
but 50/50 water-anti-frz solution also removes heat better..
and it protects against corrosion.
of IF your tap water is part of the problem..
use distilled..
mixed 50/50 with a good anti-frz.
----- Original Message -----From: plander@optusnet.com.auSent: Monday, April 11, 2011 6:41 PMSubject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of,
> and not have..is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.
> Rare .but it happens..
Very, very common in Australia.
hi ..
not trying to frighten anyone !
rather ..interested in seeing you all have more T3 Syncro Success.
the engine does not have to come out to work on the heads and head gaskets.
I'm sure some technicians and syncro owners can be more like a
surgeon and 'sneak in there' and do fine work in a restricted area ...and others
don't want to do it that way.
and ....'it depends' ..
if it's just one side being worked on .
and there's no need for say, a new clutch ..
I'll do the whole job engine in van. I've replaced pistons and
barrels even, engine in van.
sure crossing fingers helps.
You know what would be really nice..
get another used engine if you can ..
and work on that doing as much as it needs ..
even if it's full overhaul ....while you drive your current engine.
lots of advantages to that system ..
even if your 'driver engine' bites the dust big time ...
you have a back up engine ..
perhaps they are hard to acquire used there though.
Here you can pick them up for under $ 1,000 US easily ..
or ..hey ..
when your buddies convert to Subaru power ..buy their old engine.
I'll share about something I've done that greatly improves my ability to
work in small spaces..
or work to advance things incrementally when necessary etc...
that's rock climbing.
In Rock Climbing ...you support yourself on the barest 'nubin of
nothing'..
like the slightest edge of a coin sticking out of a rock face is a major
foothold in real rock climbing ..
and you concentrate, and fight for tenths of an inch at a time..
it's all about balance and concentration ..
highly involving too ...addictive even ..
and ..when it comes to mating an engine onto a transmission and clutch
..
or removing a circlip in a tight space..
or just anything in T3 Syncro mechanics .......when it's really difficult
...or there are wires and cables in my face...or just anytime 'real intention'
is called for ...
I just 'dig down' and apply the 'sheer intention and concentration' learned
from rock climbing.
it's mesmerizing even ...everything else gets blocked from your mind
..
concentration narrows to the finest detail........and you just keep moving
upward ..
sometimes not even knowing how you did it ..but 'somehow' ..you found
something in yourself ..
that got you one more inch up the wall. Really magic that
way.
..... when things are really difficult ..
or it's a fraction of an inch at a time kind of thing ..
I just pretend it's rock climbing. It's a mental game too ..not at
all about brute strength ..
it's about balance and cleverness, and sheer intention ...from 'nowhere'
even ..
just because you said you would ....you create magic out of nothing in rock
climbing sometimes..
It's great training for any challenging situation....especially any
physical challenge. Feels powerful too.
the first thing I think about on any waterboxer engine ...if it's going to
need head work..
is getting those nuts unscrewed without hurting the studs.
I've spent two hours on one nut ....heating it, drilling down through
the top of it ....etc..
just to get it off without breaking the stud under it.
and when I have a back-up part ...
then that reduces the stress a lot...cause the whole boat isn't sunk if
something goes wrong on your primary part, or engine.
Scott
----- Original Message -----From: Ken GarrattSent: Monday, April 11, 2011 6:10 PMSubject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.Scott,
If you're trying to frighten us, you've succeeded! ... hahaIts not an easy decision to make, having the engine pulled and inspected by "experts" and probably overhauled while its out, purely on the basis that one should check the head studs.I concede, it's an issue I lose sleep on every other night. Unfortunately I'm well versed in procrastination. Does crossing ones fingers help?Cheers.Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:42:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
hi all,reWhen it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way."I sure have an opinion !it's a totally dumb design.it's amazing they last as well as they do.it's 'dumb' because ..look at what every other manufacture does ..combustion sealing and coolant sealing take place on one plane..like any conventional cylinder head and gasket.on the waterboxer ..the two sealings are done separately ..becuase it is an adapted air-cooled design.the head still sits on top of the barrle with metal sealing rings ..just like in an old VW Bug ..the head reaches down around the barrel about 10mm to help keep things in place..all fine and dandy.then ....VW just extended the air-cooled design block up so there are water jackets..and that sealing ..the outer rubber water-retention gasket is on a different plane than the combustion sealing is ..so they can't just use a good old fasioned flat headgasket.and ...this is the real joke part ..how well the outer rubber water gasket is compressed to seal ..is determined by how far down over the barrels the heads fit ..I have seen many that squease the outer rubber gasket too much and it gets pinched and split ..then it leaks in a few years..or the opposite .......that qasket isn't squesed enough ..and it seeps after a few years. ..though that is rather rare.and I have seen a brand new AMC head fit so that it's tilted sitting on the barrlss ..so the outer rubber gasket is pinched on one end and not compressed enogh on the other.'usually' the outer water gasket gap is about right .It's smart to install the bare head ( with metal rings on top of the barrels ) and measure that gap ..when I first discovered this problem in the 90's ..in my research and talking to everyone about why gaskets on a new head only lasted about a year ..finally ..a VW dealer tech told me ...you install the bare head, meausre that gap .and it it's too small ( or too big ) try another head !!!at which I really threw up my hands and knew it wasn't my workmanship that was any cause ..since the notion 'standardized' car parts dates from the late teens in the US I believe. Prior to that each car was indiviudallty fitted, piece to piece.It was a big deal when they drove 3 Buicks I think..to a New York Expo kind of event..tore them all apart, mixed up all the parts ..and put them back together and they all ran and worked..so ...the idea that one head might fit right and another not ..is just a pure joke.In practice though ..we manage to live with them and they work well enough ..usually.I see lot of corrosion on T3 vans here in the Western US ..and this is a nice environment too ..but corrosion happens ..especially inside the engine in the coolant.You can't change coolant too often on a waterboxer engien that is 20 years old.so when I hear....'my heads have been on 240,000 miles with no problems ' ..I get very nervous.About the very worst corrosion related thing you want to be aware of, and not have..is the cylinder head studs breaking off down in the block.Rare .but it happens..and it very serious to correct or deal with.the way the nuts feel unscewing them is just nervous feeling ..before they start to unscrew, the stud under it twists quite a bit ...then finally the nuts breaks loose and unscrews , usually.if the nut is corroded..or worse..the stud is weakened down in the case due to corrosion you can be in big trouble.so ....delaying addressing it, if there is corrosion at all.........can only allow it to get worse.If it's a 'keeper' van ..deal with it now, or at a convenient time soon, rather than put it off for a long time.as for the barrels getting stuck in the heads ..that does happen sometimes...corrosion is a factor.There are bumps on the outside of the barrels placed there specifically for prying them out of the heads with a bar ...that works nicely. Usually is not a problem there.( I did have one set of Brazilina 1.9 pistons and barrels where the barrels fit much, much too tightly into the cylinders ..had to hone those to fit right .....hand lap them in ...hopefully your barrels will separate from the cylinders nicely ..the usualy do. )there can be pretty bad pitting at the rubber gasket surface on the head ( oh ..only saw this once..but I recently say a waterboxer head removed and there was a chunk of the engine case missing from corrosion ! ..it was either JB weld there and hope..or another engine. ..usally just the heads are pitted or corrodded. )if they are ..just resurfacing the bottom of the head like a normal head..it not really a viable repair.the 'step distance' between where the metal rings sit in the combustion chambers and the flat bottom of the head has to be about right ..since that distance determines how well or not well the outer rubber gasket is compressed.'normal machine' shops can not address that so easily ..since their reference point for surfacing the bottom of a head is the top of it ..the valve cover surface........which is not what that distance is referenced from ..it's referenced from the combustion chambers ..where the metal rings fit.anway ..the sooner a leaky head gakset is dealt with ..generally ..the better.and I also have a valve job done too.it's common on the 2.1 for the exhaust valves to be leaking a little.scottOregon, USA----- Original Message -----From: Ken GarrattSent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:21 PMSubject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.Greg,
Actually, I know what you mean but fitting a new water pump isn't necessarily a permanent fix either, just delays the inevitable next failure.Any 20yo vehicle getting as far as then taking on big red would most likely have been virtually gutted of mechanical parts and rebuilt beforehand. In recent times, I've only heard of Yurik tackling and winning over big red.When it comes to dodgy head gaskets, there seems to have been around for a long time a school of thought that the WBX2.1 motor is well qualified. I have no opinion either way.You can sleep easier knowing I'll not be sullying my syncro by fitting a Subaru motor ... with or without dodgy head gaskets.Cheers and thanks for your response.KenTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
Ken, some mechanics are very shy about using such products! I would even hesitate to use it as a "get home method". Re the Subaru conditioner (a holts product), the difference between your leaking t3 pump and a new Subaru with a design fault in the head gaskets is vast. Your pump would have had a failed bearing or seal or both. No amount of goo would have PERMANENTLY fixed it. The right way to look after mechanical things is when you notice a fault you fix it properly, that way when you are at the base of big red and you gun the engine you don't get a sea of coolant pouring out and five guys in landcruisers laughing at you. Those Subaru's needed redesigned parts fitted to properly fix their head gasket leaks which tells you, yes, it was a way of weaselling out of spending some of there goodwill budget. Greg E
--- On Tue, 12/4/11, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 12:50 AM
Sam,
I tend to think mechanics aren't too shy about using this type of product, depending upon individual vehicle repair circumstances, keeping costs down or selling the vehicle soon.I remember my sons Mazda once had a minor head gasket leak and my mechanic advised me to use a Nulon product which I did and it fixed it no problem. Never had a problem since.On the other side of the coin, some say use of such products may contribute to clogging up radiator cores. I suppose ... ask a radiator repairman.Interesting it specifically mentions fixing leaking water pump shaft seals which is exactly the problem I had recently and went through the exercise of replacing the pump ... maybe it was worth considering this as an alternative .... don't know for sure, I guess one would have to take a punt and try it ... caveat emptor eh.Would Subaru sully its reputation by selling a crap product? Probably not.Sorry Sam, probably not much help.Cheers.ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: me@samarnold.org
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:55 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
On the topic of seeping coolant, does any one have comment on the utility of the stop leak products such as this one here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290307584828&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
?
Sam
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
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> Could not agree more Hart. The subject is so big I have left out a thousand topics, like adding more ponies...
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...> wrote:
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> From: Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@...>
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: "Hartmut Kiehn" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 7:35 PM
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> Â
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> Greg, just heads off ???? But how ? Heads normally stick to the barrels like being welded on with Ken's JB Weld. And once you disturb the bottom seals you are in the thick of it....
> Done it recently, ended up doing a complete top end overhaul.
> One way or the other, the job has to be done as you say it will get worse and more expensive...  cheerio  Hart
> Â
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> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 02:18:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
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> Â
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> It will only get worse. At minimum you need heads off, new gaskets and head surface clean up. If you have lots of kms up you will be smart to do more than that.
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> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...> wrote:
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> From: richardnicholls74 <richardnicholls74@...>
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Coolant leakage from head gasket.
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 6:43 PM
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> Â
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> Just discovered minor coolant leak between head and block, location on the head side of seal!!very minor should i take action or give it some time and see if it develops i suspect it has been like it for some time?
> Cheers.
>
Always carry some distilled water.
And make sure the earth lead to the motor is clean and connected.
And keep your fingers crossed :)
Mark
And make sure the earth lead to the motor is clean and connected.
And keep your fingers crossed :)
Mark
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris" <leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> One of the principal roles of the coolant is to prevent the studs from
> corroding through.
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> I have seen MV engines run on tap water in which ALL of the studs have
> corroded down to next to nothing. For the sake of saving a few dollars on
> the correct coolant, the cost is many thousands of dollars!!
>
> Les
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> plander@...
> Sent: 12 April 2011 11:28
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant leakage from head gasket.
>
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> The head stud problem appears to be more common in Australia than anywhere
> else.
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> I think that a lot of Aussies are putting tap water in with the coolant.
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> Phill
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