Flat spot in EFI

1

Hi all,

I'm looking for a little direction on where to look next in my EFI system.


Bit of back ground, the engine has run well ever since I got it, drives nicely, get good economy (well for a Syncro at least). However it has always seemed lacking torque at lower rev's. (comparing to other T3's I've driven). Never thought much of it as it's not stopped me doing anything and all seems well.

Recently it has started to struggle more than usual after starting from hot (as in turned off few minutes prior and re-starting) and the exhaust smell has changed some what.

Over the week end finally got around to checking the Temp sensor. The new spare I had measured at the top end of the tolerance band in the manual, the old one was just outside the band. So the difference was only marginal (checked at 30/60/90degC). So although not perfect, not likely the issue. I had also previously changed the thermostat for one of the lower temp ones (82C), so I changed this back to stock (87C) and installed the new temp sensor.


On the short drive I have done since, it seems back to "normal", but the original issue still remains.

Any thoughts on where to look next?


In tinkering's/services over the last few years have also done the following:

Replace O2 sensor, dissy cap/rotor, plugs, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel pump, serviced the injectors.

Have also checked the AFM is in spec (and air temp), CO2 in exhaust is in spec, fuel pressure is in spec, idle and full throttle switches are working fine, idle control valve works fine (bumps up idle with AC and power steering)


Also as a comparison, with the engine at idle, rapidly push the throttle and there is a few seconds lag before the engine responds. It's also slow to come back to idle. If I do the same on my 2WD (auto), there is no hesitation and it comes back to idle much quicker.

I have also put a vacuum gauge on the intake, and all seems OK there, and have not found any vacuum leaks (throttle body,  inlet, tapper covers etc)


Anyway, and direction on where to look would be appreciated. I do have down as my next job to do right through the inlet to replace all gaskets etc, so if there are any leaks, this should fix that.


Richard

2
A flat spot and slow return to idle sounds very much like a vacuum leak. Have you tried the brake cleaner trick? Greg 

Sent from Greg's iPhone

On 5 Dec 2017, at 2:50 am, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi all,

I'm looking for a little direction on where to look next in my EFI system.


Bit of back ground, the engine has run well ever since I got it, drives nicely, get good economy (well for a Syncro at least). However it has always seemed lacking torque at lower rev's. (comparing to other T3's I've driven). Never thought much of it as it's not stopped me doing anything and all seems well.

Recently it has started to struggle more than usual after starting from hot (as in turned off few minutes prior and re-starting) and the exhaust smell has changed some what.

Over the week end finally got around to checking the Temp sensor. The new spare I had measured at the top end of the tolerance band in the manual, the old one was just outside the band. So the difference was only marginal (checked at 30/60/90degC). So although not perfect, not likely the issue. I had also previously changed the thermostat for one of the lower temp ones (82C), so I changed this back to stock (87C) and installed the new temp sensor.


On the short drive I have done since, it seems back to "normal", but the original issue still remains.

Any thoughts on where to look next?


In tinkering's/services over the last few years have also done the following:

Replace O2 sensor, dissy cap/rotor, plugs, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel pump, serviced the injectors.

Have also checked the AFM is in spec (and air temp), CO2 in exhaust is in spec, fuel pressure is in spec, idle and full throttle switches are working fine, idle control valve works fine (bumps up idle with AC and power steering)


Also as a comparison, with the engine at idle, rapidly push the throttle and there is a few seconds lag before the engine responds. It's also slow to come back to idle. If I do the same on my 2WD (auto), there is no hesitation and it comes back to idle much quicker.

I have also put a vacuum gauge on the intake, and all seems OK there, and have not found any vacuum leaks (throttle body,  inlet, tapper covers etc)


Anyway, and direction on where to look would be appreciated. I do have down as my next job to do right through the inlet to replace all gaskets etc, so if there are any leaks, this should fix that.


Richard

3
Richard perhaps the exhaust system could be getting blocked have you any rattles if you tap it with your fist or a rubber hammer.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:50 AM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking for a little direction on where to look next in my EFI system.


Bit of back ground, the engine has run well ever since I got it, drives nicely, get good economy (well for a Syncro at least). However it has always seemed lacking torque at lower rev's. (comparing to other T3's I've driven). Never thought much of it as it's not stopped me doing anything and all seems well.

Recently it has started to struggle more than usual after starting from hot (as in turned off few minutes prior and re-starting) and the exhaust smell has changed some what.

Over the week end finally got around to checking the Temp sensor. The new spare I had measured at the top end of the tolerance band in the manual, the old one was just outside the band. So the difference was only marginal (checked at 30/60/90degC). So although not perfect, not likely the issue. I had also previously changed the thermostat for one of the lower temp ones (82C), so I changed this back to stock (87C) and installed the new temp sensor.


On the short drive I have done since, it seems back to "normal", but the original issue still remains.

Any thoughts on where to look next?


In tinkering's/services over the last few years have also done the following:

Replace O2 sensor, dissy cap/rotor, plugs, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel pump, serviced the injectors.

Have also checked the AFM is in spec (and air temp), CO2 in exhaust is in spec, fuel pressure is in spec, idle and full throttle switches are working fine, idle control valve works fine (bumps up idle with AC and power steering)


Also as a comparison, with the engine at idle, rapidly push the throttle and there is a few seconds lag before the engine responds. It's also slow to come back to idle. If I do the same on my 2WD (auto), there is no hesitation and it comes back to idle much quicker.

I have also put a vacuum gauge on the intake, and all seems OK there, and have not found any vacuum leaks (throttle body, inlet, tapper covers etc)


Anyway, and direction on where to look would be appreciated. I do have down as my next job to do right through the inlet to replace all gaskets etc, so if there are any leaks, this should fix that.


Richard


4
I tend to agree with Richard.

The exhausts are now old and the cat converters are now very rusty old clogged up rubbish.

I know of someone that took out his Catalytic converter and basically removed its innards.

He noticed a significant increase in power and response.

Might be worth some investigation.....

Cheers,

Skot

On 5/12/2017 9:42 AM, Peter Wilson peterw1000@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Richard perhaps the exhaust system could be getting blocked have you any rattles if you tap it with your fist or a rubber hammer.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:50 AM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking for a little direction on where to look next in my EFI system.


Bit of back ground, the engine has run well ever since I got it, drives nicely, get good economy (well for a Syncro at least). However it has always seemed lacking torque at lower rev's. (comparing to other T3's I've driven). Never thought much of it as it's not stopped me doing anything and all seems well.

Recently it has started to struggle more than usual after starting from hot (as in turned off few minutes prior and re-starting) and the exhaust smell has changed some what.

Over the week end finally got around to checking the Temp sensor. The new spare I had measured at the top end of the tolerance band in the manual, the old one was just outside the band. So the difference was only marginal (checked at 30/60/90degC). So although not perfect, not likely the issue. I had also previously changed the thermostat for one of the lower temp ones (82C), so I changed this back to stock (87C) and installed the new temp sensor.


On the short drive I have done since, it seems back to "normal", but the original issue still remains.

Any thoughts on where to look next?


In tinkering's/services over the last few years have also done the following:

Replace O2 sensor, dissy cap/rotor, plugs, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel pump, serviced the injectors.

Have also checked the AFM is in spec (and air temp), CO2 in exhaust is in spec, fuel pressure is in spec, idle and full throttle switches are working fine, idle control valve works fine (bumps up idle with AC and power steering)


Also as a comparison, with the engine at idle, rapidly push the throttle and there is a few seconds lag before the engine responds. It's also slow to come back to idle. If I do the same on my 2WD (auto), there is no hesitation and it comes back to idle much quicker.

I have also put a vacuum gauge on the intake, and all seems OK there, and have not found any vacuum leaks (throttle body, inlet, tapper covers etc)


Anyway, and direction on where to look would be appreciated. I do have down as my next job to do right through the inlet to replace all gaskets etc, so if there are any leaks, this should fix that.


Richard



--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
5

Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.

Ref the vac leak, that was my initial thought (well originally thought it was the O2 sensor, hence it was replaced), but have not found a leak yet (tried with aero start). I have all the seals for the inlet, so it's on the to-do list. Vac gauge also did not pick up any lack in vacuum or pulsing at idle etc.

Have not look at the exhaust yet. No rattles inside, but I see a pin hole has developed in the muffler, so it is showing it's age. I was not looking at that as the issue is at low rev's, at high rev's it pulls much harder and I expect for an old 2.1L engine pushing a Caravelle Syncro along (1.9T empty!). I would have expected the opposite if there was excessive back pressure in the exhaiust.


Guess I could see if I can get hold of a dead catalytic converter and knock a few holes in it and see what happens. I have been reluctant to remove any of the exhaust because even though it is all sound, the bolts would need cutting off to get it all apart. So a job I'm avoiding :)


I keep coming back to the point, if I push the throttle rapidly open, you hear a sudden rush of air in the inlet and the engine stumbles before eventually picking up. 


Richard

6
Regarding vacuum leaks, there is also all the lines to the diff-locks etc to check.

Lots of vacuum lines!

Best of luck.

Skot



On 5/12/2017 6:15 PM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.

Ref the vac leak, that was my initial thought (well originally thought it was the O2 sensor, hence it was replaced), but have not found a leak yet (tried with aero start). I have all the seals for the inlet, so it's on the to-do list. Vac gauge also did not pick up any lack in vacuum or pulsing at idle etc.

Have not look at the exhaust yet. No rattles inside, but I see a pin hole has developed in the muffler, so it is showing it's age. I was not looking at that as the issue is at low rev's, at high rev's it pulls much harder and I expect for an old 2.1L engine pushing a Caravelle Syncro along (1.9T empty!). I would have expected the opposite if there was excessive back pressure in the exhaiust.


Guess I could see if I can get hold of a dead catalytic converter and knock a few holes in it and see what happens. I have been reluctant to remove any of the exhaust because even though it i s all sound, the bolts would need cutting off to get it all apart. So a job I'm avoiding :)


I keep coming back to the point, if I push the throttle rapidly open, you hear a sudden rush of air in the inlet and the engine stumbles before eventually picking up.


Richard


--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
7
Further to the CAT.
A year or so ago my muffler collapsed internally.
That certainly restricted gas flow.
On my way home, I couldn’t get it faster than 60 kph, so we took the back streets.
Had it towed to my mechanic, it just wasn’t really drivable.
Peter




On 5 Dec 2017, at 6:15 PM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.

Ref the vac leak, that was my initial thought (well originally thought it was the O2 sensor, hence it was replaced), but have not found a leak yet (tried with aero start). I have all the seals for the inlet, so it's on the to-do list. Vac gauge also did not pick up any lack in vacuum or pulsing at idle etc.

Have not look at the exhaust yet. No rattles inside, but I see a pin hole has developed in the muffler, so it is showing it's age. I was not looking at that as the issue is at low rev's, at high rev's it pulls much harder and I expect for an old 2.1L engine pushing a Caravelle Syncro along (1.9T empty!). I would have expected the opposite if there was excessive back pressure in the exhaiust.


Guess I could see if I can get hold of a dead catalytic converter and knock a few holes in it and see what happens. I have been reluctant to remove any of the exhaust because even though it is all sound, the bolts would need cutting off to get it all apart. So a job I'm avoiding :)


I keep coming back to the point, if I push the throttle rapidly open, you hear a sudden rush of air in the inlet and the engine stumbles before eventually picking up. 


Richard




8
Mine has had a similar symptom since I got it but I have been too lazy to chase it. It runs really well and is always smooth and has good torque down low but quite often pulling away at low revs it seems to bog down and can't get out of it's own way. Once revs start to build it recovers quickly but is disconcerting when pulling into traffic or across an intersection with cars bearing down. It never coughs or stumbles just has a flat spot. I haven't been through it like you have so could be anything but have replaced the coil and the spark plugs and tested the leads on two separate occasions when it stopped on me. Other than that it runs really sweet,

Neil.
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 5/12/17, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Flat spot in EFI
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Received: Tuesday, 5 December, 2017, 6:15 PM












Thanks for all the replies, much
appreciated.Ref the vac leak, that was my initial
thought (well originally thought it was the O2 sensor, hence
it was replaced), but have not found a leak yet (tried with
aero start). I have all the seals for the inlet, so it's
on the to-do list. Vac gauge also did not pick up any lack
in vacuum or pulsing at idle etc.Have not look at the
exhaust yet. No rattles inside, but I see a pin hole has
developed in the muffler, so it is showing it's age. I
was not looking at that as the issue is at low rev's, at
high rev's it pulls much harder and I expect for an old
2.1L engine pushing a Caravelle Syncro along (1.9T empty!).
I would have expected the opposite if there was excessive
back pressure in the exhaiust.
Guess I could see if I can get hold of a
dead catalytic converter and knock a few holes in it and see
what happens. I have been reluctant to remove any of the
exhaust because even though it is all sound, the bolts would
need cutting off to get it all apart. So a job I'm
avoiding :)
I keep coming back
to the point, if I push the throttle rapidly open, you hear
a sudden rush of air in the inlet and the engine stumbles
before eventually picking up.
Richard










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9

Hi Neil, early on when I first got the Syncro, I had it a couple of times it would start and idle, but not respond at all to the throttle. Of course by the time I got it to the mechanic it never happened. In that investigation I replaced the fuel pressure regulator and O2 sensor (plus a lot of checking parts)

Some root cause analysis on that issue, the circumstances were the same, hot day, had not long turned the engine off and re-started and tank close to empty. Best guess was with a low tank the fuel was heating up and experienced some vapour lock in the fuel lines, which is why we tried the regulator. O2 sensor was not in spec, but replacing never affected drivability.

Interesting point as the new pressure regulator never had an effect, the original has been back in ever since and have not had the issue for the last few years.


Just something to think about if/when it happens again.

Richard

10
Well if you can rule out the exhaust I would check some earth connections

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Peter Wilson <peterw1000@gmail.com> wrote:
Richard perhaps the exhaust system could be getting blocked have you any rattles if you tap it with your fist or a rubber hammer.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:50 AM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm looking for a little direction on where to look next in my EFI system.


Bit of back ground, the engine has run well ever since I got it, drives nicely, get good economy (well for a Syncro at least). However it has always seemed lacking torque at lower rev's. (comparing to other T3's I've driven). Never thought much of it as it's not stopped me doing anything and all seems well.

Recently it has started to struggle more than usual after starting from hot (as in turned off few minutes prior and re-starting) and the exhaust smell has changed some what.

Over the week end finally got around to checking the Temp sensor. The new spare I had measured at the top end of the tolerance band in the manual, the old one was just outside the band. So the difference was only marginal (checked at 30/60/90degC). So although not perfect, not likely the issue. I had also previously changed the thermostat for one of the lower temp ones (82C), so I changed this back to stock (87C) and installed the new temp sensor.


On the short drive I have done since, it seems back to "normal", but the original issue still remains.

Any thoughts on where to look next?


In tinkering's/services over the last few years have also done the following:

Replace O2 sensor, dissy cap/rotor, plugs, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel pump, serviced the injectors.

Have also checked the AFM is in spec (and air temp), CO2 in exhaust is in spec, fuel pressure is in spec, idle and full throttle switches are working fine, idle control valve works fine (bumps up idle with AC and power steering)


Also as a comparison, with the engine at idle, rapidly push the throttle and there is a few seconds lag before the engine responds. It's also slow to come back to idle. If I do the same on my 2WD (auto), there is no hesitation and it comes back to idle much quicker.

I have also put a vacuum gauge on the intake, and all seems OK there, and have not found any vacuum leaks (throttle body, inlet, tapper covers etc)


Anyway, and direction on where to look would be appreciated. I do have down as my next job to do right through the inlet to replace all gaskets etc, so if there are any leaks, this should fix that.


Richard



11

Thanks Neil, earth connections definitely all good ( and doubled up on all as well )

Driving around last couple of days, I would say the new thermostat and temp sender have had a marginal improvement. Hopefully January I can take some time and do a thorough replacement of all the intake seals and any other potential vac leak points. If that makes no difference will start to swap over some parts from the 2WD and see what happens.

Cheers

Richard