Can your T3 alt charge your house battery like this?
"What stops it from charging?" Nothing! It is charging
"Your BMW experience has nothing to do with what I am saying"
I think it does. They needed ways of increasing level of charge in batteries and used this technology.
You are asking for reputable companies but BMW is not reputable enough?
You own a ctek and see the validity of the technology for mains charging but can't see how the same is needed in the vehicle?
Or is it your premise that your apprenticeship project does exactly the same job as your ctek
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2014, 7:41 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
Do the reputable companies actually say that you can never charge a battery to 100% with an alternator?
Well what happens when your battery is at 12.7v and your alternator is at 13.8?
What stops it from charging?
Your BMW experience has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Can your T3 alt charge your house battery like this?
"What stops it from charging?" Nothing! It is charging
"Your BMW experience has nothing to do with what I am saying"
I think it does. They needed ways of increasing level of charge in batteries and used this technology.
You are asking for reputable companies but BMW is not reputable enough?
You own a ctek and see the validity of the technology for mains charging but can't see how the same is needed in the vehicle?
Or is it your premise that your apprenticeship project does exactly the same job as your ctek
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2014, 7:41 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
Do the reputable companies actually say that you can never charge a battery to 100% with an alternator?
Well what happens when your battery is at 12.7v and your alternator is at 13.8?
What stops it from charging?
Your BMW experience has nothing to do with what I am saying.
The CTEK D250S gives you the freedom and flexibility to keep your batteries charged and in optimum condition without having to connect to mains power. To le...
Can your T3 alt charge your house battery like this?
Yes it can.
"What stops it from charging?" Nothing! It is charging
Well then what happens when it gets to 99%?
"Your BMW experience has nothing to do with what I am saying"
I think it does. They needed ways of increasing level of charge in batteries and used this technology.
You are asking for reputable companies but BMW is not reputable enough?
You own a ctek and see the validity of the technology for mains charging but can't see how the same is needed in the vehicle?
Are you talking about charging in normal use or whether an alternator can charge a battery to 100%.
Or is it your premise that your apprenticeship project does exactly the same job as your ctek
Yes it does, but I have to manually turn it off to avoid overcharging (past 100%) as the ctek goes to a lower voltage "float charge" that will not damage the battery if it is left on indefinitely.
So you are saying that if the charger stays at the higher voltage it will not charge the battery to 100%?
"So you are saying that if the charger stays at the higher voltage it will not charge the battery to 100%?"
The alternator is not at higher voltage its a lower voltage.
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2014, 15:18 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
"Do the reputable companies actually say that you can never charge a battery to 100% with an alternator?"
The CTEK D250S gives you the freedom and flexibility to keep your batteries charged and in optimum condition without having to connect to mains power. To le...
Can your T3 alt charge your house battery like this?
Yes it can.
"What stops it from charging?" Nothing! It is charging
Well then what happens when it gets to 99%?
"Your BMW experience has nothing to do with what I am saying"
I think it does. They needed ways of increasing level of charge in batteries and used this technology.
You are asking for reputable companies but BMW is not reputable enough?
You own a ctek and see the validity of the technology for mains charging but can't see how the same is needed in the vehicle?
Are you talking about charging in normal use or whether an alternator can charge a battery to 100%.
Or is it your premise that your apprenticeship project does exactly the same job as your ctek
Yes it does, but I have to manually turn it off to avoid overcharging (past 100%) as the ctek goes to a lower voltage "float charge" that will not damage the battery if it is left on indefinitely.
So you are saying that if the charger stays at the higher voltage it will not charge the battery to 100%?
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2014, 17:32 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
The alternator is never at a lower voltage than a fully charged battery so there is always current flowing. This is why batteries can be overcharged.
I'm sure that everyone understands that an
alternator with regulator working correctly will not overcharge a
battery.
say an alternator and regulator ( usually contained within the
alternator, as on our Bosch alternators ) runs at 15.0 volts ..
that's overcharging for sure ..
and something is wrong. Usually the regulator.
it'd rather rare for this to happen though.
We are getting into
very difficult territory here because we are not attaching numbers to the
discussion. As most members will know, I am/was a General Motors
engineer. There is no way that any engineering problem or discussion can
be resolved if there are no hard numbers on which to judge the matter.
Phill maintains that
any charger will achieve 100% charge in a battery. My experience over
many decades is that this is possible but the 100% charge can be determined
only with an accurate hydrometer. The slightest inattention during charge
usually results in gassing – the production of hydrogen as a result of
too much charge in the latter stages of the charging process.
My experience with the
Projecta smart charger is that gassing never occurs because of the closely
regulated charge regime. My further experience is that I have revived
batteries that have fallen to 10V static, which was doornail territory prior to
the advent of smart chargers.
Whilst the SG is a
final arbiter of charge, it is only meaningful if a record of SG for any
particular battery has been kept from the day that the battery was new.
I would love to be able
to come up with a definitive answer to the current discussion but I can’t
because I haven’t kept finely detailed records of dozens of batteries.
My reading of much information
from authoritative sources is that the average alternator provides about 80%
charge at best – which is all that is needed for day to day motoring.
It is certainly possible that a really long drive will achieve close to a 100%
charge but that still depends on the mapping of the alternator and regulator.
I am aware that modern alternators do a lot of strange things to try to keep up
with the ever increasing electrical demands of modern vehicles.
I mentioned that I am in
regular contact with a guru in the field of on-board power generation and he quotes
truckloads of figures in respect of state of charge. It would take some
time to resurrect all this information but I will if I have to. Based on
my own hands-on experience, I am assured that the smart chargers are no gimmick.
My reading of much information
from authoritative sources is that the average alternator provides about 80%
charge at best – which is all that is needed for day to day motoring.
It is certainly possible that a really long drive will achieve close to a 100%
charge but that still depends on the mapping of the alternator and regulator.
I am aware that modern alternators do a lot of strange things to try to keep up
with the ever increasing electrical demands of modern vehicles.
Yes Les that is what I have been saying.
Some vehicles now have two stage alternators which appear to be causing problems. It sounded good in the design stage but has failed in everyday use. They start at a high voltage and then after a period lower the voltage so as to not overcharge the battery. It plays havoc with dual battery systems.
Some modern vehicles (Touregs, Range Rovers and others) have problems with continuously powered electronics that will discharge the battery within a few days if not driven. I have heard that BMW have had problems in Europe with police vehicles not being able to recharge the batteries quick enough.
If it takes 5% of the battery to start the car and you only drive the car long enough to charge 3% eventually you will have problems.
having two batteries on board was mentioned ..
a starting/running battery and an aux or 'house' battery I assume
was meant.
that is a different case than regular car alternators are designed
to handle ..
though Westy Campers from VW do all right ( clever circuit they
have ..
the relay that connects charging voltage to the aux battery only
closes after the alternator is charging ) ...
which is what you want , and which is what I accomplish via a
large manual battery switch ..closing it after engine running and
alt charging. And opening the switch on shut down to keep the two
batteries isolated.
an important note I think to be aware of ..
automotive alternators are not designed to charge up well
discharged batteries.
They are designed to first...
restore to the battery the energy used in starting the car..
then to power all the electrical loads while the vehicle is
running, plus charge the battery to a healthy level.
and yes ...modern cars have huge electrical draw while running..
and while parked too.
It's totally amazing such cars are not equipped with a simple
solar panel to maintain battery power with vehicle parked ..
( some do I imagine, and one can buy a simple 'battery maintainer
small solar panel to put on the dash and plug into the cig lighter
..come to think of it ..I need about 10 of those for my various
sitting 'runner' vehciles, half of them vanagons .
fwiw ...one can, if one wishes, buy a solid state regulator/brush
package for a Bosch vw/vanagon type alternator..
and adjust the charging voltage to whatever you want, within
limits.
I knew a starter-alternator guy ...marine focused shop ...
he set every alternator he rebuilt to 14.5 volts ..
which is on the upper end of what's normal for a normal car with a
normal starting battery.
the 13.8 volts that is the normal Vanagon level is 'ok, but not
optimum' in my opinion.
Good for battery life though I believe.
I was bot going to come back into this discussion, but I'd like to say that life was simpler in the olden days.
You had a generator, a voltage regulator and an ammeter, and if you were really well equipped a voltage meter.
Provided you did not leave the lights on or have some other closed circuit, the battery stayed charged for ages.
You would start you engine and over the next few minutes you could watch the ammeter move to zero.
You could even see every time the electric fuel pump clicked.
If you turned on all the lights the ammeter would flick into the negative and them back to zero.
You even knew when the battery was near the end of it's life because the volt meter slowly, over time shifted lower.
Unfortunately, with the advent of alternators we have been denied these sources of information, and the first sign of a failing battery is a slow start or no start at all.
Some people wonder why I have a shed full of old cars awaiting reawakening.
My reading of much information from authoritative sources is that the average alternator provides about 80% charge at best â which is all that is needed for day to day motoring. It is certainly possible that a really long drive will achieve close to a 100% charge but that still depends on the mapping of the alternator and regulator. I am aware that modern alternators do a lot of strange things to try to keep up with the ever increasing electrical demands of modern vehicles.
Yes Les that is what I have been saying.
Some vehicles now have two stage alternators which appear to be causing problems. It sounded good in the design stage but has failed in everyday use. They start at a high voltage and then after a period lower the voltage so as to not overcharge the battery. It plays havoc with dual battery systems.
Some modern vehicles (Touregs, Range Rovers and others) have problems with continuously powered electronics that will discharge the battery within a few days if not driven. I have heard that BMW have had problems in Europe with police vehicles not being able to recharge the batteries quick enough.
If it takes 5% of the battery to start the car and you only drive the car long enough to charge 3% eventually you will have problems.
For the solar battery maintainers, choose them cautiously, the tiny panels most super cheap type places sell will not maintain a battery, and for a modern car would not replace what is discharged with the vehicle turned off let alone maintain the battery. You would be best to measure current draw when off and pick a solar panel size accordingly. Once you have a larger panel, you will need to use a regulator, these are available that will charge over a cycle, not a fixed voltage. I have most of my old cars connected to a 10W panel (none have any current draw when off), and plug the Syncro in if I know it will sit for a few days un used.
"My reading of much information from authoritative sources is that the average alternator provides about 80% charge at best"
"Yes Les that is what I have been saying."
Actually Phill you have been saying the opposite!
Smart alternators are a different story. They reduce the voltage being supplied to the battery for heat and dual stage charging. This does not cause any issues until you fit a dual battery system. Usually a dc /dc charger (and maybe a relay in some cases) are used to over come this. If you do not drive for long enough you will not replace the charge you have used, smart alternator or not.
Static current draw on modern cars is high. When you have 30 or so control units in a car they will drain the battery. The problem with Police cars, Taxis, Paramedics, Valet cars etc is the occupants will sit in the car with radios, communications, computers all lit up like Christmas trees and then wonder why their battery is flat. The other problem with what they are doing is that they are not letting the vehicle "go to sleep". If you don't take the key out and lock the door some cars wont go into this hibernation mode. Some will after a time, but after a significant loss of charge. Even the local police cars have aux batteries fitted to cope with the high loads when the engine is off.
It takes literally hours to charge the last few % of a batteries capacity and even if you drive down the freeway for hours on end to try and do this you will not overcome the fact that the car is constantly using current. A car used in normal suburban driving, especially when high consumer loads are also used, would have a state of charge in the 80% region. A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%. An alternator on a petrol engine is a broad sword. It will constantly pump in one "type " of charge to keep your battery at the point that you can restart the engine, there is simply no other finesse that they provide.
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 7:57 Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
My reading of much information
from authoritative sources is that the average alternator provides about 80%
charge at best – which is all that is needed for day to day motoring.
It is certainly possible that a really long drive will achieve close to a 100%
charge but that still depends on the mapping of the alternator and regulator.
I am aware that modern alternators do a lot of strange things to try to keep up
with the ever increasing electrical demands of modern vehicles.
Yes Les that is what I have been saying.
Some vehicles now have two stage alternators which appear to be causing problems. It sounded good in the design stage but has failed in everyday use. They start at a high voltage and then after a period lower the voltage so as to not overcharge the battery. It plays havoc with dual battery systems.
Some modern vehicles (Touregs, Range Rovers and others) have problems with continuously powered electronics that will discharge the battery within a few days if not driven. I have heard that BMW have had problems in Europe with police vehicles not being able to recharge the batteries quick enough.
If it takes 5% of the battery to start the car and you only drive the car long enough to charge 3% eventually you will have problems.
I wonder why there is this 'near
obsession' about % of charge ?
I've worked on cars for 5 decades ..full time,
and all I ever cared about what charging voltage and battery
condition, and battery life ..
and if one gets a high quality battery ..
takes good care of it ..
like don't start engine with lights on ..
don't let the battery run down ever ..
don't let it sit long periods..
and especially never let a battery sit dead or badly discharged
..that will do in a lead-acid battery for sure.
who cares if it's 70 or 90 or 100 % ? Moot point.
lol..if it starts readily every time ..
the battery doesn't use water ....
( a sign of either too high charging or tired battery ..if it uses
water )
and the battery lasts well ...
where is there any problem in that scenario ?
Two reasons. Firstly the thing driving that alternator is a consumer, so the alternator is always playing catch up. Secondly the way in which the alternator has outputted throughout the cycle is not ideal. This is the part that I am no expert on. Charging algorithms are way over my head. If you read any paper on the charging of batteries they talk about the various stages of charging and the hours involved. This simply does not happen in a motor car.
The fact is as soon as you unplug your battery from the smart charger and bolt it in your van you are doing it a disservice. Do long trips, charge it occasionally, don't drain it excessively and use a fandangled dc/dc charger and you will get good life out of your battery.
The final thing I want to say on this is that you have to look at real world situations. What do most of us do with our cars? Five minute run to the shops, three minute run to school, half hour run to your mates etc. Hence such low states of charge are found. A battery and alternator are a means to an ends. The manufacturers will only advance on this technology when they find something that is cheaper and more reliable.
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 10:55 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.
Agreed it is an academic argument. It is good however to understand all of these "issues" so you know how to be kind to your battery.
From: "'SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott ) ' ScottDaniel@turbovans.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 12:24 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.
I wonder why there is this 'near
obsession' about % of charge ?
I've worked on cars for 5 decades ..full time,
and all I ever cared about what charging voltage and battery
condition, and battery life ..
and if one gets a high quality battery ..
takes good care of it ..
like don't start engine with lights on ..
don't let the battery run down ever ..
don't let it sit long periods..
and especially never let a battery sit dead or badly discharged
..that will do in a lead-acid battery for sure.
who cares if it's 70 or 90 or 100 % ? Moot point.
lol..if it starts readily every time ..
the battery doesn't use water ....
( a sign of either too high charging or tired battery ..if it uses
water )
and the battery lasts well ...
where is there any problem in that scenario ?
The parasitic drain in
today’s cars is big and keeps getting bigger but we don’t even have
the number to quantify ‘big’.
We have got away from
the original topic of the benefits of using smart chargers to keep our
batteries – on our old technology Syncros – up to the best charge
possible.
Without being able to
quote reliable numbers to support this theory, I suggest that the standard alternators
on our Syncros provide a maintenance charge that replenishes the drain of the
initial start, then provides enough to add some charge to the battery.
This ‘enough’
is OK for maintenance but probably not for 100% charge.
To achieve 100% charge
without gassing the battery, clever input current management is needed.
This is supplied by a smart charger but not the standard alternator / regulator.
When driving from Melbourne
to Dubbo, I was aware of the fact that the battery was full – the cranking
speed, when I was trying to get a restart after the Hall sender karked it, was
quite high.
But I reiterate, we don’t have any numbers whatsoever
to quantify what we are discussing.
I have several standby
batteries and this discussion has prompted me to try to get some numbers from
the currently installed battery, the standby Syncro battery and two non-Syncro
batteries.
I can access the electrolyte
in several of them to measure SG bit I will need an accurate voltmeter to get
voltage readings as well. An onboard voltmeter and ammeter might be
useful but I suspect that sufficiently accurate meters would be extremely
expensive.
In the meanwhile, I
will do some more searching for numbers relating to battery maintenance. (The
matter of keeping an auxiliary battery fully charged is related and my guru
source nominates the CTEK DC/DC as by far the best solution; the reasons are
many and complex but I can trust his unmatched experience in this field.)
Les
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 15 October 2014 10:55 To:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Long Life Batteries.
A highway
car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.
