Long Life Batteries.

41
...indeed,
which is why I mentioned some of the things I do to make my auto batteries last really well.

and we havn't even mentioned anything like a device to prevent ..what's it called....'suffated ...' ' .? ...
got one of those on my off-grid house batteries ..
I think the six 8 volt golf cart batteries are basically done though.
( like they solar charged for 2 yrs without regulation ...they'll come up OK with good sun, and are very easy to pull down with much load at all )

and ...so far I just can not find a gasoline powered generator that will charge a 24 volt system..
they are all 110V AC generators, not what's really needed to back up charging when there's not enough solar energy.

someone will make the first gas-hybrid plug-in T3 van somewhere one of these days .

a plug-in hycrid car is quite fasciantating as there are 3 ways to put energy into it ..
fossil fuel, grid or off-grid electricity, and regenerative braking. ..
they should all have solar panels on their top sides too !
eventually ..
rather than 'car with battery' it will be 'battery with wheels that drives. "

pardon my digression or what some may see as wandering.



On 10/14/2014 3:49 PM, Greg Esposito gregespo73@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Agreed it is an academic argument. It is good however to understand all of these "issues" so you know how to be kind to your battery.
From: "'SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott ) ' ScottDaniel@turbovans.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 12:24
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

I wonder why there is this 'near obsession' about % of charge ?

I've worked on cars for 5 decades ..full time,
and all I ever cared about what charging voltage and battery condition, and battery life ..
and if one gets a high quality battery ..
takes good care of it ..
like don't start engine with lights on ..
don't let the battery run down ever ..
don't let it sit long periods..
and especially never let a battery sit dead or badly discharged ..that will do in a lead-acid battery for sure.

who cares if it's 70 or 90 or 100 % ? Moot point.

lol..if it starts readily every time ..
the battery doesn't use water ....
( a sign of either too high charging or tired battery ..if it uses water )
and the battery lasts well ...
where is there any problem in that scenario ?






On 10/14/2014 1:55 PM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.

You still haven't said why not.




42
i don't know how accurate a meter needs to be. ..
the difference between 12.3 volts and 12.35, or 12.4 volts is useful enough.

I maintain 10 lead-acid batteries ...8 for house off-grid power ..
and two for vehicles ..
lately I'm constantly taking voltage readings on batteries with a simple digital volt-ohm meter.

I had two deep cycle 12 volt batts in series for 24 volts..
I could tell things were not perfectly happy.
I found one of those batteries at a nice  'fat' 12.8 volts..
the other at 9 something ! Not good.
I have been able to get that low one up to 11.8 volts charging it ..
Not sure it's going to recover.  They're not cheap either.

and when solar is weak ..I sure could use a way to turn fossile fuel energy into 25 volts directly..
so far can't find such a device on line.  Any suggestion welcome. Thanks !
On 10/14/2014 4:01 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

Again, without numbers, we are generalizing. 

The parasitic drain in today’s cars is big and keeps getting bigger but we don’t even have the number to quantify ‘big’. 

We have got away from the original topic of the benefits of using smart chargers to keep our batteries – on our old technology Syncros – up to the best charge possible.

Without being able to quote reliable numbers to support this theory, I suggest that the standard alternators on our Syncros provide a maintenance charge that replenishes the drain of the initial start, then provides enough to add some charge to the battery.

This ‘enough’ is OK for maintenance but probably not for 100% charge. 

To achieve 100% charge without gassing the battery, clever input current management is needed.  This is supplied by a smart charger but not the standard alternator / regulator.  When driving from Melbourne to Dubbo, I was aware of the fact that the battery was full – the cranking speed, when I was trying to get a restart after the Hall sender karked it, was quite high.

But I reiterate, we don’t have any numbers whatsoever to quantify what we are discussing.   

I have several standby batteries and this discussion has prompted me to try to get some numbers from the currently installed battery, the standby Syncro battery and two non-Syncro batteries.

I can access the electrolyte in several of them to measure SG bit I will need an accurate voltmeter to get voltage readings as well.  An onboard voltmeter and ammeter might be useful but I suspect that sufficiently accurate meters would be extremely expensive.

In the meanwhile, I will do some more searching for numbers relating to battery maintenance.  (The matter of keeping an auxiliary battery fully charged is related and my guru source nominates the CTEK DC/DC as by far the best solution; the reasons are many and complex but I can trust his unmatched experience in this field.)

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 15 October 2014 10:55
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries. 

A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.

You still haven't said why not.


43

Again, we aren’t working with actual numbers but I am led to believe from people whose knowledge of batteries is unquestionable that keeping any battery at the fullest charge possible produces the longest battery life.

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 15 October 2014 12:25
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

I wonder why there is this 'near obsession' about % of charge?


44
mmmm...I'm not so sure about that.
keeping a battery 'well charged' is best for battery life, in my opinion.

keeping it 'maximum charged' all the time..I tend to think that's a little rough on the battery.
Mostly I find 12.7 to be a common, and healthy 'resting voltage' on a healthy lead-acid 12 volt battery.

gotta chuckle here a little..
as a person who just 'fixes and restores stuff' and goes by 'what works and what doesn't ' ..learned over decades ..
what is 'theoretical' and 'very about *engineering* is not very impressive to me. 


there are countless examples of things that in engineering terms should be strong and stout enough ..
but are not . 
perfect example...how the timing belt sprocket is bolted to the nose of all VW 1.9 and 1.9 TDI engines is a joke ..
and they get 'wonky' there..and fail..
and can blow up the engine ..
and are underdesigned by far compared to the same set up on a Volvo or Subaru ..
Some german engineers calculated it would all right ..
in truth I bet the calcualated it would be good enough to get the cars through the warranty period ..
but it's a joke design ..
bound to fail sooner or later.
An example of why I am not impressed that much by 'engineering' ...it either works or doesn't and sometimes the numbers are 'too theoretical' .
I could go on forever..take the o-rings that failed on the US Space Shuttle 20+  odd years ago ...
engineering wise they were supposed to be up to snuff..but they really weren't ...killing people as a result.

On 10/14/2014 4:08 PM, 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

Again, we aren’t working with actual numbers but I am led to believe from people whose knowledge of batteries is unquestionable that keeping any battery at the fullest charge possible produces the longest battery life.

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 15 October 2014 12:25
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

I wonder why there is this 'near obsession' about % of charge?



45
Hi Scott,

RE: fwiw ...one can, if one wishes, buy a solid state regulator/brush package for a Bosch vw/vanagon type alternator..
and adjust the charging voltage to whatever you want, within limits.

I understand our T3 (syncro vanagon) stock standard Bosch regulator is specced at 14.0v DC maximum output to suit the single battery charging scenario.

Without spending locally say AU$500 on above-mentioned solid state package for smart charging a dual battery van, perhaps an acceptable and economical solution that may suit some, for example, as found at the following website that specialises in replacement regulators. Listed are an internal or external regulator that has an increased but limited fixed output of 14.5v DC or else an adjustable regulator that is recommended to also be set at maximum 14.5v DC.

Reading the website, increasing DC regulation by 0.5v DC may offer our dual battery vans a benefit of an increased/economical/safe charging regime, whilst staying within maximum output capability limit of the alternator on the one hand and storing more juice without overcharging two batteries on the other.

Agreed it's nowhere near a smart charging solution but I'd be interested in your thoughts/comments as an alternative choice ... TIA.
Cheers.
Ken
 

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:53:52 -1000
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

 
thanks for the chuckle.

having two batteries on board was mentioned ..
a starting/running battery and an aux or  'house' battery I assume was meant.

that is a different case than regular car alternators are designed to handle ..
though Westy Campers from VW do all right ( clever circuit they have ..
the relay that connects charging voltage to the aux  battery only closes after the alternator is charging ) ...

which is what you want , and which is what I accomplish via a large manual battery switch ..closing it after engine running and alt charging. And opening the switch on shut down to keep the two batteries isolated.

an important note I think to be aware of ..
automotive alternators are not designed to charge up well discharged batteries.
They are designed to first...
restore to the battery the energy used in starting the car..
then to power all the electrical loads while the vehicle is running, plus charge the battery to a healthy level.

and yes ...modern cars have huge electrical draw while running..
and while parked too. 
It's totally amazing such cars are not equipped with a simple solar panel to maintain battery power with vehicle parked ..
( some do I imagine, and one can buy a simple 'battery maintainer small solar panel to put on the dash and plug into the cig lighter ..come to think of it ..I need about 10 of those  for my various sitting 'runner' vehciles, half of them vanagons .

fwiw ...one can, if one wishes, buy a solid state regulator/brush package for a Bosch vw/vanagon type alternator..
and adjust the charging voltage to whatever you want, within limits.

I knew a starter-alternator guy ...marine focused shop ...
he set every alternator he rebuilt to 14.5 volts ..
which is on the upper end of what's normal for a normal car with a normal starting battery. 

the 13.8 volts that is the normal Vanagon level is 'ok, but not optimum' in my opinion.
Good for battery life though I believe.



On 10/13/2014 11:47 PM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 
I'm sure that everyone understands that an alternator with regulator working correctly will not overcharge a battery.

Yes they will eventually.



46
On the auxiliary / house battery state of charge is important to keep an eye on given that over discharging these even more expensive batteries, severely shortens their life. I built a device with a shunt that monitored current flow in an attempt to keep track of this. Turns out however things are not that straight forward as you need to take into account the rate of discharge. If anyone is interested lookup Peukert's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law). Then there is temperature compensation which is also hard to find that much info on.

Now thinking of leaving it to the experts and getting one of these. Seems to be the best on the market plus the model up can keep track of two batteries.


Jon.

On 15/10/2014, at 12:49 PM, Greg Esposito gregespo73@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Agreed it is an academic argument. It is good however to understand all of these "issues" so you know how to be kind to your battery.
 
From: "'SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott ) ' ScottDaniel@turbovans.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 12:24
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

 
I wonder why there is this 'near obsession' about % of charge ?

I've worked on cars for 5 decades ..full time,
and all I ever cared about what charging voltage and battery condition, and battery life ..
and if one gets a high quality battery ..
takes good care of it ..
like don't start engine with lights on ..
don't let the battery run down ever ..
don't let it sit long periods..
and especially never let a battery sit dead or badly discharged ..that will do in a lead-acid battery for sure.

who cares if it's 70 or 90 or 100 % ?   Moot point.

lol..if it starts readily every time ..
the battery doesn't use water ....
( a sign of either too high charging or tired battery ..if it uses water )
and the battery lasts well ...
where is there any problem in that scenario ?






On 10/14/2014 1:55 PM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 
A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.

You still haven't said why not.





47
Hi Ken ...
that looks like the one I have used.
they're not expensive either.
I've probably installed 5 or so ..
in one case the brushes wore out fairly quickly ..in about a year. ..otherwise they've been fine.

but, if one wishes to tinker with charging voltage ..this is a fine and not expensive way to go.

I don't especially think charging two batteries at 14.5 volts is 'better' than charging them at say 14.0 volts ..
won't hurt though.

I would say that running your aux battery down pretty far ..
and a regular car battery ..or even a deep cycle battery is not really designed to be run down very far..
I forget the number that I've seen quoted.
I'd try not to go below something like 11 volts ...they are not really good at being taken down pretty far ( lead-acid batteries ) is my understanding ..
and for sure ..
a common automotive alternator does not like to be hit suddenly with a very discharged battery to charge back up. They're not made for that.
On 10/14/2014 5:47 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Hi Scott,

RE: fwiw ...one can, if one wishes, buy a solid state regulator/brush package for a Bosch vw/vanagon type alternator..
and adjust the charging voltage to whatever you want, within limits.

I understand our T3 (syncro vanagon) stock standard Bosch regulator is specced at 14.0v DC maximum output to suit the single battery charging scenario.

Without spending locally say AU$500 on above-mentioned solid state package for smart charging a dual battery van, perhaps an acceptable and economical solution that may suit some, for example, as found at the following website that specialises in replacement regulators. Listed are an internal or external regulator that has an increased but limited fixed output of 14.5v DC or else an adjustable regulator that is recommended to also be set at maximum 14.5v DC.

Reading the website, increasing DC regulation by 0.5v DC may offer our dual battery vans a benefit of an increased/economical/safe charging regime, whilst staying within maximum output capability limit of the alternator on the one hand and storing more juice without overcharging two batteries on the other.

Agreed it's nowhere near a smart charging solution but I'd be interested in your thoughts/comments as an alternative choice ... TIA.
Cheers.
Ken

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:53:52 -1000
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

thanks for the chuckle.

having two batteries on board was mentioned ..
a starting/running battery and an aux or 'house' battery I assume was meant.

that is a different case than regular car alternators are designed to handle ..
though Westy Campers from VW do all right ( clever circuit they have ..
the relay that connects charging voltage to the aux battery only closes after the alternator is charging ) ...

which is what you want , and which is what I accomplish via a large manual battery switch ..closing it after engine running and alt charging. And opening the switch on shut down to keep the two batteries isolated.

an important note I think to be aware of ..
automotive alternators are not designed to charge up well discharged batteries.
They are designed to first...
restore to the battery the energy used in starting the car..
then to power all the electrical loads while the vehicle is running, plus charge the battery to a healthy level.

and yes ...modern cars have huge electrical draw while running..
and while parked too.
It's totally amazing such cars are not equipped with a simple solar panel to maintain battery power with vehicle parked ..
( some do I imagine, and one can buy a simple 'battery maintainer small solar panel to put on the dash and plug into the cig lighter ..come to think of it ..I need about 10 of those for my various sitting 'runner' vehciles, half of them vanagons .

fwiw ...one can, if one wishes, buy a solid state regulator/brush package for a Bosch vw/vanagon type alternator..
and adjust the charging voltage to whatever you want, within limits.

I knew a starter-alternator guy ...marine focused shop ...
he set every alternator he rebuilt to 14.5 volts ..
which is on the upper end of what's normal for a normal car with a normal starting battery.

the 13.8 volts that is the normal Vanagon level is 'ok, but not optimum' in my opinion.
Good for battery life though I believe.



On 10/13/2014 11:47 PM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
I'm sure that everyone understands that an alternator with regulator working correctly will not overcharge a battery.

Yes they will eventually.




48
You are 100% correct Scott.
49
thanks for posting these links.
maybe there is a misunderstanding about what 'battery life' means.

to me that means how long the dang thing lasts ..as in years. Like the 'serviceable life.'

how long it can maintain a respecdtable amount of juice ..as demonstarted in Peukert's Law ... perhaps that is what is meant by 'battery life.' by the poster.

and it makes sense if you draw current it out of it at a faster rate than at a lower rate ..
the total capacity will be less at the higher draw rate ..seems logical anyway.

a normal car battery used for starting and driving should never be below 12 volts resting voltage. ( or so )
That would be a good way to shorten battery life in my opinion..
say ....leave the lights on ..
run it down more than normal ....then fire that rig up and the regulator will kick into 'charge that thing back up' mode ..rough on both the battery and the alternator/regulator.

lol..I saw a guy at a festival run his huge stereo system off his small Honda battery for a couple of days ..
that just ruined that battery ..
couldn't jump start it or anything . Had to get a new battery to get the car to run again.

On 10/14/2014 5:50 PM, Jon Bartlett mail@jaybe.net [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

On the auxiliary / house battery state of charge is important to keep an eye on given that over discharging these even more expensive batteries, severely shortens their life. I built a device with a shunt that monitored current flow in an attempt to keep track of this. Turns out however things are not that straight forward as you need to take into account the rate of discharge. If anyone is interested lookup Peukert's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law). Then there is temperature compensation which is also hard to find that much info on.


Now thinking of leaving it to the experts and getting one of these. Seems to be the best on the market plus the model up can keep track of two batteries.


Jon.

On 15/10/2014, at 12:49 PM, Greg Esposito gregespo73@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Agreed it is an academic argument. It is good however to understand all of these "issues" so you know how to be kind to your battery.
From: "'SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott ) ' ScottDaniel@turbovans.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 12:24
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

I wonder why there is this 'near obsession' about % of charge ?

I've worked on cars for 5 decades ..full time,
and all I ever cared about what charging voltage and battery condition, and battery life ..
and if one gets a high quality battery ..
takes good care of it ..
like don't start engine with lights on ..
don't let the battery run down ever ..
don't let it sit long periods..
and especially never let a battery sit dead or badly discharged ..that will do in a lead-acid battery for sure.

who cares if it's 70 or 90 or 100 % ? Moot point.

lol..if it starts readily every time ..
the battery doesn't use water ....
( a sign of either too high charging or tired battery ..if it uses water )
and the battery lasts well ...
where is there any problem in that scenario ?






On 10/14/2014 1:55 PM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.

You still haven't said why not.






50
driving any car for only very short periods of times is really rough on it ,
and bad for fuel economy too.

I would say that *any* reasonable good car with decent battery could do 10 minute trips only , indeffenitely, and unless the driver is running high-output driving lights, AC all the time, huge boom-boom sound system ...
the car and battery will be fine, starting and charging wise.

lol...college student in a Winter Climate brought me a smoking T4 van with 2.1 waterboxer engine and fuel injection..
We had it towed as it looked like it had a stuck open injector or serious oil problem etc.

after I got into it ...I saw what was happening ..this during winter.
I said ..'you drive this van 4 blocks the Food Co-op mainly ..right ? "

the young woman said yes..I said .."you can't do that with a 2.1 waterboxer engine in the wintertime..they need to be driven until well up to temp ...half hour at least say.

Battery wise the van was fine though.

just check your charging voltage at your battery with engine running ...ideally after warmed up ...
you should see a min of 13.8 volts ..max of 14.5 or so ..
if it's in that range,
battery plates with acid are covered inside the battery ..
terminals and connections are clean ..you're golden.

there's nothing you can do at that point except maintain the system ..belt tension ( oh .I have found MANY loose and worn bearings on Bosch alternators on 2.1 wbxr engines ..many ...
It's a standard service item to undo the belt and spin the alternator by hand ..
also check for up-down play ....found many a bad bearing ..
and sometimes a worn alternator case where the bearings fit at the rear.

you can also listen to the alternator running internally with a 'listening stick' ..
hard wood stick is nice ..about 2 feet long..
but that to your ear flap and the other end on running things like alternator, distributor, injectors and engine block ..
tons of racket going on ...rumbly bearings really stand out that way. Be careful of clothes , hair, jewlery, etc around moving parts. They can kill ya.
On 10/14/2014 3:43 PM, Greg Esposito gregespo73@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Two reasons. Firstly the thing driving that alternator is a consumer, so the alternator is always playing catch up. Secondly the way in which the alternator has outputted throughout the cycle is not ideal. This is the part that I am no expert on. Charging algorithms are way over my head. If you read any paper on the charging of batteries they talk about the various stages of charging and the hours involved. This simply does not happen in a motor car.
The fact is as soon as you unplug your battery from the smart charger and bolt it in your van you are doing it a disservice. Do long trips, charge it occasionally, don't drain it excessively and use a fandangled dc/dc charger and you will get good life out of your battery.
The final thing I want to say on this is that you have to look at real world situations. What do most of us do with our cars? Five minute run to the shops, three minute run to school, half hour run to your mates etc. Hence such low states of charge are found. A battery and alternator are a means to an ends. The manufacturers will only advance on this technology when they find something that is cheaper and more reliable.
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 15 October 2014, 10:55
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Long Life Batteries.

A highway car would be in the 90's but NEVER 100%.

You still haven't said why not.



51
I don't especially think charging two batteries at 14.5 volts is 'better' than charging them at say 14.0 volts ..
won't hurt though.

You can eventually destroy the batteries by doing that. I've seen it many times.

The problem with 100% idea, is that 99% is good and 101% is bad. If you keep your starting battery at 75% it will last just as long as one at 100%. The problem is with your auxiliary battery that is usually used to its full capacity so it requires as much stored energy as possible.
52
and ...so far I just can not find a gasoline powered generator that will charge a 24 volt system..
they are all 110V AC generators, not what's really needed to back up charging when there's not enough solar energy.

110V AC generator + CTEK?
53
all right ..finally found something.
I needed to look for a 'DC generator' ..
http://www.altendc.com/dc-generators.html
On 10/14/2014 8:50 PM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

and ...so far I just can not find a gasoline powered generator that will charge a 24 volt system..
they are all 110V AC generators, not what's really needed to back up charging when there's not enough solar energy.

110V AC generator + CTEK?