Dear Ken,
When you first mentioned on this topic that Roger was coming back with more information it set me in a panic that I was losing my marbles until Roger (Beetle) Bayley chipped in with his contribution and stopped me going off to up my medication.
Like others I'm impressed with the intellect and hard work that you both applied to the subject -we are all beneficiaries.
I like to keep my T3 OEM replacements as far as possible but am tempted by the feeling that better materials and products could exist since the original origins of the parts in the 80's. To this end I was discussing hoses with my brother who spent much of his working life in hydronic heating and he suggested that that industry had evolved some very practical high heat and pressure flexible but mouldable piping in various sizes which also allowed T pieces and downsized sleeves to be inserted. He suggested the following UK site which he thought better than the German one which is the country of origin of this product. He suggested there were other brands available.
I'm in a local library writing this whilst down enjoying the delights of Tasmania so don't have a lot of other infomation with me but at least wanted to bring this left field idea to your attention. My brother tells me there is a Australian distributor for Uponor. Will write more on my return but am interested in comments.
Good luck with the new tailpipe. Fitted a new VAG one about 4 years ago with similar problems and solutions but the paint has long since burnt off and rust has set in.
Cheers
Roger --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Coolant rubber hoses
To: "Syncro _T3_Australia forum" <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 8:21 PM
Theo, Thanks for the response. Just in case you missed it, Roger carried out a quite painstaking review of hose ID measurements and subsequently reported his findings here. I believe the correct size ID for the straight rubber cut-to-length hose for those you refer to is 7.5mm. Below is Rogers findings. Cheers. Ken Hi Ken,
My comment about the high cost of replacement hoses didn't refer to genuine replacement parts - the fortune I spent was at an independent importer, one of the cheapest sources of VW parts in Oz - and at trade prices! I would have had to take up politics or bushranging to pay VAG prices.
My last post referring to substitute hoses included a typo; #65 should read #45, which is just a straight length of 25 mm hose.
The Gates rubber sleeves can be slipped inside a hose to make it fit a smaller diameter pipe. This allows a hose
to fit different sizes at each end. Your suggestion that a piece smaller hose would do the same job is a good one. Gates is easier to use as it has a rim on one end to facilitate assembly.
As for carrying straight lengths of hose for bush repairs, probably 38mm and 32mm would do the job, with a couple of short lengths of poly pipe and clamps for temporary grafts. In remote areas I would also carry a couple of short lengths of 7.5 mm & 25mm malleable metal pipe that can be bent and grafted into a damaged hose. I've always thought that industrial 'heat shrink" could be used for a band-aid on a blown hose, but I've never tried it. The whole caboodle wouldn't weigh more than a stubby, and if everything was stuffed inside the largest hose it wouldn't rattle and could easily be stowed into a body cavity [in the van, that is]. If you have read "Papillon" you'll know what I mean ...
I spent a couple of days in the
shed with a measuring stick and a piece of string and came up with some additions to your hose chart. Some of my dimensions don't agree with yours, so I'd better explain my methods;
I measured a set of new hoses, and the diameter of the pipes that they fit. I checked the components of three vehicles; 1988 Syncro Caravelle, 1989 T3 2WD, and 1992 ex-Telecom Syncro. The dimensions were identical across the range.
Most of the new hoses were non-genuine but I was able to compare them to genuine used hoses. All of the new hoses came from Tooley Imports or VanCafe, both of which supplied a mixture of genuine VW branded hoses and others made in Germany by Meyle Wolfe Gaertner Autoparts AG.
When measuring the length of hoses I took the longest measurement around the outside of the bends. Angles were measured with a carpenter's protractor. Then I marked the middle of the bend and measured to the closest
end.
When searching for alternative hoses it will probably be necessary to find a hose with the correct bends and trim it to suit.
The prices are given as a guide only. Don't forget the price of freight when importing from the USA.
Here's my contribution;
#02; There are two hoses that can be used between the thermostat housing and the plastic perimeter pipe; 025 121 058B [2WD] or 251 121 058B [4WD].
My 1988 Syncro has a 251, which has a 90 degree bend centred 35 mm from the big end that connects to the thermostat housing. It is a neater installation, and probably less prone to snagging by stray branches kicked up in the bush. If you could find one it would be very expensive.
025 is the straight hose used in the 2WD. This is the only one stocked by most suppliers.
The length of the straight bit is 325 mm on both.
I couldn't find either hose in Australia, so I imported an 025 from VanCafe for $22.80 USD [about $30 AU]. It was a genuine VW hose.
You could make this hose yourself by fabricating a 7.5mm -12mm adaptor.
I disagree with the dimensions on your chart Ken - I measured three of them, and the pipes that they connect to, and got 12mm and 7.5 mm.
#03; 025 121 058M; 25mm hose with a 90 degree bend, connected to 500 mm of 7.5 mm hose. Also used on 2WD.
These hoses commonly fail near the cylinder head.
I saw a home-made one with a 25mm to 7.5 mm adaptor that lasted for years.
Mine is a Meyle 119 121 051 supplied by Tooleys for $59.40. VanCafe sells them for $24.25 USD.
These hoses can be trimmed shorter in vans without air-con.
#04; 025 121 058D; 12mm/16mm hose 125mm long with a 90 deg. bend, 45mm from the big end. Also used on 2WD.
Mine is a Meyle 119 121 000 supplied by Tooleys for $4.20. VanCafe sells them for $3.75 USD.
In an emergency you could use a 16mm hose with an internal sleeve.
#05; 025 121 058E; 12mm/16mm straight hose 68 mm long. Also used on 2WD.
Mine is a Meyle 119 121 0145 supplied by Tooleys for $8.30. VanCafe sells them for $6.45 USD.
In an emergency you could use a 16mm hose and an internal sleeve.
#06;
025 121 058G; This is a tricky one. My original hose was 10mm/16mm but all replacement hoses I have seen are 12mm/16mm, which makes a loose fit on the pipe that has to be tightened up with a screw clamp. Not a pretty sight. I have seen several long-term examples and none were leaking, but they didn't look happy.
Further research needs to be done - perhaps VAG hoses fit better.
The hose is 107 mm long and has a 95 deg. bend 45mm from the big end. Also used on 2WD.
Mine is a Meyle 119 121 007 supplied by Tooleys for $6.20. VanCafe sells them for $5.45 USD.
#07; 025 121 058J; 10mm hose 100 mm long with a 130 deg bend or curve in the middle. Also used on 2WD.
I've seen a straight hose used successfully.
Mine is genuine VW,
supplied by Tooleys for $7.10. VanCafe sells them for $6.95 USD.
#08; 025 121 058H;16mm hose with a 90 degree curve [radius 40 mm] 75mm from one end, overall length 175mm. Also used on 2WD.
It should be easy to find a hose with a suitable bend and trim it to fit.
Mine was supplied by Tooleys for $21.95. VanCafe sells them for $6.85 USD.
#09; 251 121 072; [Syncro only] 25mm hose 105mm long with a slight curve.
I have seen straight hose used.
Mine is a genuine VW item from Tooleys. I will have to look back through my records to find the price. They are $59.85 USD at VanCafe.
#13; 251 121 062; [Syncro only] 32mm/38mm hose 380 mm long with complex curves. The first 100 degree bend is 105 mm from the small end. The
second 160 degree bend is 110 mm from the big end, kinked upwards towards the camera at 10 degrees.
$53.10 USD at VanCafe. Mine is a genuine item from Tooleys.
#14; 251 121 073; 32mm/38mm, 146mm long with a 135 deg. bend 62mm from the big end. Also used on 2WD.
Mine is a genuine VW item from Tooleys. $30.80 USD at VanCafe.
#15; 251 121 082; 32/38mm straight hose, 658mm long. Also used on 2WD 2.1 & 1.9 litre engines.
Mine is a Meyle 119 721 0081 supplied by VanCafe for $27.00AU.
I also have a used hose with an indecipherable brand, p/n 117 54194 273.
In emergency you could use 38mm hose with an internal sleeve.
Ken
- I disagree with your dimensions.
#16; 251 121 083H; 32/38mm hose 820 mm long overall. Also used on 2WD 2.1 and 1.9 litre engines.
I have an unbranded hose, p/n 027970, from Tooleys - $43.05. VanCafe sells them for $28.75 USD.
Ken - I disagree with your dimensions.
#17A; 025 121 108H; [Syncro only] 20mm/25mm hose, 285 mm long overall.
This hose is different to that in the 2WD because the Syncro body-shell has been jacked up higher than the motor. The curve allows for movement of the engine in relation to the coolant reservoir.
The shape of the hose is not critical, as long as it has adequate slack. It should be possible to find a substitute.
You could get by with 25 mm hose and a sleeve on the
small end, or by brazing an adaptor onto the steel pipe.
Ken - I disagree with your dimensions. The pipe on the coolant reservoir is 25mm.
#18; 251 121 072A or 251 121 130B; 25 mm pipe, VanCafe and Tooley's list 251 121 072A as the correct p/n for my 1988 syncro, describing it as "4WD plastic junction pipe to motor" . It costs $74.80 and is not always available. A cheaper alternative is 251 121 130B [as per chart] which costs a lot less [$16.50 USD. at VanCafe]. This is the 2WD version.
The hoses are very similar, with an overall length of 210mm. The centre to centre measurement looks the same. The only difference is the angle of the bends. Look at the picture of 130B and you will see it has two 90 degree bends. 072A has two 115 degree bends in the same place, which makes it look like a snake poised
to strike. Something like the symbol ƒ without the cross-bar. The only difference I could see was that this would compensate for a 20mm increased gap between the cylinder head and the plastic junction box. I'll have to measure and compare the difference between a Syncro junction box and a 2WD version to see if they are different.
My Syncro has a 130B which fits perfectly, still in good nick after many years. 072A didn't look as comfortable. Figure that out!
When I drop out the motor I will check it out more thoroughly.
As Phill has pointed out, this is the hose that most commonly fails. It is buried out of sight in the hottest part of the engine bay. Carry a spare, check it frequently and replace it when it gets soft and starts to bulge. Don't let your missus see this advice.
#25; 025 121
073H; 38mm hose, 190mm long with a 107 degree bend 50mm from one end. Tooleys provided a Meyle 119 021 044 for $24.20. VanCafe sell them for $9.85 USD.
#26; 251 121 102; [Syncro only]. 38mm hose 238 mm long with a slight bend. Difficult to find, probably because it is unnecessary to pay big dollars when a straight bit of hose will do.
I used a straight hose 280mm long to allow for the curve, and give plenty of overlap over the plastic pipe for two hose clamps. [see my previous post regarding a metal insert to repair a broken plastic pipe end]. After a good run on the freeway it assumed the correct shape. $10.
Gates does a flexible hose called Vulco Flex. P/N 26412 is 38mm x 267mm which might do the trick, for around $20.
#26A; 251 121 103; [Syncro only]. 25 mm hose, 230mm long. VanCafe sells them for $48.65 USD
#45; N
901 287 03. 25mm straight hose varying from 60 to 70 mm long. Same on 2WD 2.1 and 1.9 engine.
Tooleys sold it to me for $14.85. I can see no reason why anyone should make the same mistake I did; next time I'll just cut my own.
There is a useful coolant hose diagram at www.vanagain. com/211schc. htm
Cheers, Roger [Beetle] Bayley.
To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com From: teows@melbpc. org.au Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:21:27 +0000 Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Re: Coolant rubber hoses
Roger,
Full marks to you and Ken for your hard work.
In 2005 I had my MV engine reconditoned with new hoses installed but I kept the old ones just in case.
Now some of the measurements are slightly different.
The perimeter plastic pipe has 6 connection: one 16mm and five 8mm, which means hose #2 + #3 should be 8mm on one end.
On hose #4 + #6 the 16mm measures more like 18mm on my used hoses so I'm not so sure on that one. All the other ID dimensions are the same as what I have.
Cheers,
Theo
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