R&R water pump

21

Hi Phill,

 

The word for stud in german is     Stehboltzen     as in Zylinderkopfstehboltzen    and yes,  one word !   Steh comes from stehen or to stand  so it’s a standing bolt.

 

Hart

 

 



> Scott Daniel - Turbovans <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
> bolt/screw same thing to me.

The correct definition for bolts/screws

Bolt = The thread does not continue all of the way to the head.

Screw = (Short for set screw) Thread continues for the complete length.

During my trade course I would have faced the death penalty for incorrect nomenclature.

Note; The word for stud in german is "Boltzen". As in "Zylinderkopf Boltzen"

22
Thanks Hart.

I was just going on the spoken word as the IG syncro 16 Zoll members could not understand what the word head stud meant when I was in Munchen.



> Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@live.com.au> wrote:
>
> Hi Phill,
>
>
>
> The word for stud in german is Stehboltzen as in
> Zylinderkopfstehboltzen and yes, one word ! Steh comes from stehen
> or
> to stand so it's a standing bolt.
>
>
>
> Hart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Scott Daniel - Turbovans <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
> <mailto:ScottDaniel%40turbovans.com> > wrote:
> >
> > bolt/screw same thing to me.
>
> The correct definition for bolts/screws
>
> Bolt = The thread does not continue all of the way to the head.
>
> Screw = (Short for set screw) Thread continues for the complete length.
>
> During my trade course I would have faced the death penalty for
> incorrect
> nomenclature.
>
> Note; The word for stud in german is "Boltzen". As in "Zylinderkopf
> Boltzen"
23
If it's this Scott.
I talked about using something on most threaded fastener threads, like 'Tefgell', or  teflon paste from the hardware store, or gasket sealer, like Permatex High Tack.   Makes the threads unscrew so easily years later. Without something on the threads, they can rust and corroded and get very stuck.  With some 'sticky barrier' product on them, they come right apart years later.
 
then I said I always use a good sealant on cooling system o-rings ( not the t-stat one though ) ...like my fav Toyota black silicone or The Right Stuff ..
and excellent sealer.
both of those will seal coolant or oil metel-to-metal with no o-ring or gasket.
I also said dry o-rings don't cut it in cooling system applications after a while, i.el they seep after a few years.
Scott
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:03 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

Hi Hanniboon,

I believe Scott mentioned Silicone in connection with bolt threads and not as a method of fixing  leaks in pumps and tubing. It won’t last anyway as the system is under pressure. As a last resort one could ‘fix’ a leak with  (Ken’s) gaffer tape.

Hart

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hanniboon
Sent: Thursday, 2 December 2010 4:52 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

FYI, beware using silicone with leakage pump and tubing. I saw one engine that has had "Jelly like" stuck in engine's head. Causing over heat troubles and can't be figure out why until diassembling the engine.

Sent from Hanniboon BlackBerry® by dtac.

From: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com>

Sender: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:11:35 -0800

To: <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>

ReplyTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

bolt/screw same thing to me.

bolts are generally considered larger than screws ..

but calling any M8 X 1.25 threaded fastener a bolt or screw ..either is OK.

as I mentioned..

there are M8 X 1.25 threaded screws/bolts that have smaller than 13mm hex head screws.

I put ones in with 12mm hex head screws on that small pipe on the right side of the w. pump.

japanese cars use tons of M8 X 1.25 screws with 12mm hex heads.

they fit.

there are a few 10mm hex head bolts/screws of that thread too.

way better than those cheesy allen screws.

I had to take one "L" type allen wrench and cut it short to fit into one of those screws, btw.

the 'screw' end too, not the 'handle' end.

never ever install cooling system o-rings dry.

'always' use a sealant on them.

I like toyota black silicone sealat a lot ..

they seal their w. pumps to V-6 engine blocks with no o-ring or gasket with that stuff.

there is also The Right Stuff ..

also extra good cooling system or oil system sealant/ gasket replacer.

but dry o-rings on VW cooling system parts ...is a joke.  They shrink after a while ..just can't work dry forever. Same thing on Honda t-stat housings....dry o-ring does not work 'forever'.

Also add a sealant.

well considering the gernal decline in the quality of the parts these days, I'd like a w. pump from 1992.

your choice is to juse use it, don't use it, or take it apart I suppose ..

so just try it.

or get another new one.

I have never seen hex head bolts on the left side of the w. pump on the large pipe.

I have seen a few of them with only one allen screw installed though.

just install the new water pump very carefully and you'll probably be fine.

'It's not the parts....it's the workmanship."

scott

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken Garratt

Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:26 PM

Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

Hartmut, John, Scott, Francesca, Eddie, Roger, Benny, All,
 
Thanks guys and gals, you've all exceeded my wildest expectations ..... either on the phone, email or here. Needless to say I have taken copious notes and will compile a docco in due course for the benefit of present and future generation syncro owners!
 
It occurred to me that with this topic raising so much interest from so many members with so much knowledge & experience on R&R WP, I can easily visualise you guys just champing at the bit to jointly attend a field day along with fav tools, lubes & sealant to closely eyeball and deal with my WP project. Beer and nibbles energy food will be provided! Should be fun. Might even learn something. We just need to agree on a date and venue!
 
Scott, I've doublechecked my 4 x allen screws (I agree with Roger, in Oz we would call them allen bolts, all that is different compared to hex heads is the shape of the head so here, they would still be called a bolt) and my Etka lists these bolts (believe it or not) as 2 x M8 x 25 - Z3 hex head on the LHS and 2 x M8 x 22 allen key head bolt on the RHS. My 4 x bolts are all allen key heads and accept 6mm allen keys, exactly the same size allen key as for our rear CV joint bolts in Oz. Maybe you ppl in US have 8mm allen keys in the heads, but not here on mine anyway. I wonder why Etka lists the LHS bolts as being hex head bolts, because there isn't enough space to fit a hex head socket there. Anyone here got original hex head bolts on the LHS?
 
Ok now here's a curly one for you all to mull over .... the replacement wp kit. It just so happens that a wp kit has been handed down with this vehicle through subsequent owners, unused, just stored & sitting in waiting, seemingly in good nic, since at least 1992. So begs the question, should I now use it here? The 2 x O rings with it and the 1 x flat gasket all look and test fine. The only question I have is ... what exactly is the type and material of the internal seal in the WP housing? If we know that, we may have a clue then as to its likely condition, its durability unused, maybe it is perfectly fine or maybe there is otherwise a good reason to doubt it. I know its just too easy to say ... "well just go buy a new one". But on balance, I'd consider using it if the type of seal in it can be identified and known to be unaffected by time in a sealed and unused state. Guys, care to tear my theorising to shreds and NOT make my day or otherwise make me a happy chappy? Remember, I suspect even this replacement WP will probably outlast me anyway .... in my opinion!
 
I'm heading out now .... may have more to say later on.
 
Cheers.
 
Ken
 
 
 
 

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: bergodaz@ozemail.com.au
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 23:23:11 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

Ken, removing the pulley just gives you a bit of room to work with & gives you a good view of what you are doing- properly aligning things & making sure you have properly sealed all hoses and gaskets.Sure the woodruff key is a pain when reinstalling the pulley ,but this pain is nothing compared to th pain you'll feel if you finish the job only to find leaks in your work-I've made that mistake-but only once.Just one other bit of advice, if you are using hose clamps , try to position them so you can easily retighten them later. Good luck with your repair.Eddie.

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@...> wrote:
>
>
> Eddie,
>
> Yes I've already mastered expanding and holding the distance between the main drive pulley and tinware to easily fit a 30mm socket and driver onto the drive pulley bolt. Made up an expanding bizzo to do that ... works pretty good. In the back of the drive pulley are 2 holes on opposing sides, they accept the special VW tool that locks fast the drive pulley fast so the pulley bolt can be removed/installed. I found that instead, depending upon whether you are taking the bolt in or out, select the appropriate hole and insert a long socket through the hole ... think its around 14-16mm size (can't remember). Shift the pulley around until it jambs the socket against the engine casing, just as the special tool does. Then you can loosen/tighten the pulley bolt. I must say though I've chickened out so far on removing the pulley. Also someone here recently said they had a deal of trouble refitting the pulley, in particular due to the difficulty re-aligning the woodruff key.
>
>
>
> Any other hints you have please doing the water pump R&R? Tools? etc etc. Thanks a lot.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: bergodaz@...
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:46:43 +0000
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken ,Ive done that R&R about 5 times.4 with crank pulley in & 1 with it out. The job is EASY with it out, so if you can, get it out.
> I can force the tinware back far enough to get a socket onto the pulley bolt.Cheers, Eddie.
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > All,
> >
> >
> >
> > Looks like it's finally happened to me too ..... and out of the blue, for no particular reason other than I'm guessing ... its old age. It may well be the original pump, if so, then it's done 202,000klms.
> >
> >
> >
> > I recently noticed a coolant leak and traced it as coming from the drain hole on the water pump housing, so I assume the internal seal on the water pump shaft has finally spat the dummy ... nicely timed for pre Xmas break/businesses closures/Batemans Bay Tour prepping.
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been boning up on past posts and links, hopefully to find enough courage to attempt this R&R insitu procedure. I agree, doing this sort of project, the first time is always the hardest.
> >
> >
> >
> > However I am still unclear on how far one has to go with dismantling surrounding components so as to enable enough clearance to allow the water pump to be shifted rearwards on the threaded studs so as to clear everything for removal. Anyone know please, with some clarity?
> >
> >
> >
> > For example, it seems to be accepted that the main drive pulley doesn't require removal. Assuming that is the case, how does one then deal with the metal coolant pipe bolted to the RHS of the water pump housing and running horizontally across behind and toward the bottom of the main drive pulley? Does this pipe, once unbolted from the water pump, have to be physically removed altogether for clearance reasons or can it simply be angled up or down to clear for the water pump housing removal? It'd be nice if it didn't require removal but someone may say otherwise?
> >
> >
> >
> > Some say remove the tinware ... yes or no or just loosen it to offer some better access for tools to bolts, clamps, screws etc if needed or is it really unnecessary ... just leave the tinware as is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Some say remove the complete distributor for necessary better access for tools etc .... yes or no? Or just remove the distributor cap and rotor or leave as is?
> >
> >
> >
> > Any other critical procedure and/or component issue I need to know about?
> >
> >
> >
> > Any help, hints and tips for a successful water pump changeover would be welcome. TIA.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Ken
> >
>

24
The engine you talking about is suby ;-) I m sure!

Pat

Sent from my BlackBerry® by dtac.

From: "Hanniboon" <hanniboon@yahoo.com>
Sender: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 05:52:04 +0000
To: <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

FYI, beware using silicone with leakage pump and tubing. I saw one engine that has had "Jelly like" stuck in engine's head. Causing over heat troubles and can't be figure out why until diassembling the engine.

Sent from Hanniboon BlackBerry® by dtac.

From: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com>
Sender: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:11:35 -0800
To: <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

bolt/screw same thing to me.
bolts are generally considered larger than screws ..
but calling any M8 X 1.25 threaded fastener a bolt or screw ..either is OK.
 
as I mentioned..
there are M8 X 1.25 threaded screws/bolts that have smaller than 13mm hex head screws.
I put ones in with 12mm hex head screws on that small pipe on the right side of the w. pump.
 
japanese cars use tons of M8 X 1.25 screws with 12mm hex heads.
they fit.
there are a few 10mm hex head bolts/screws of that thread too.
way better than those cheesy allen screws.
 
I had to take one "L" type allen wrench and cut it short to fit into one of those screws, btw.
the 'screw' end too, not the 'handle' end.
 
never ever install cooling system o-rings dry.
'always' use a sealant on them.
I like toyota black silicone sealat a lot ..
they seal their w. pumps to V-6 engine blocks with no o-ring or gasket with that stuff.
 
there is also The Right Stuff ..
also extra good cooling system or oil system sealant/ gasket replacer.
 
but dry o-rings on VW cooling system parts ...is a joke.  They shrink after a while ..just can't work dry forever. Same thing on Honda t-stat housings....dry o-ring does not work 'forever'.
Also add a sealant.
 
well considering the gernal decline in the quality of the parts these days, I'd like a w. pump from 1992.
your choice is to juse use it, don't use it, or take it apart I suppose ..
so just try it.
or get another new one.
 
I have never seen hex head bolts on the left side of the w. pump on the large pipe.
I have seen a few of them with only one allen screw installed though.
 
just install the new water pump very carefully and you'll probably be fine.
 
'It's not the parts....it's the workmanship."
 
scott
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 

Hartmut, John, Scott, Francesca, Eddie, Roger, Benny, All,
 
Thanks guys and gals, you've all exceeded my wildest expectations ..... either on the phone, email or here. Needless to say I have taken copious notes and will compile a docco in due course for the benefit of present and future generation syncro owners!
 
It occurred to me that with this topic raising so much interest from so many members with so much knowledge & experience on R&R WP, I can easily visualise you guys just champing at the bit to jointly attend a field day along with fav tools, lubes & sealant to closely eyeball and deal with my WP project. Beer and nibbles energy food will be provided! Should be fun. Might even learn something. We just need to agree on a date and venue!
 
Scott, I've doublechecked my 4 x allen screws (I agree with Roger, in Oz we would call them allen bolts, all that is different compared to hex heads is the shape of the head so here, they would still be called a bolt) and my Etka lists these bolts (believe it or not) as 2 x M8 x 25 - Z3 hex head on the LHS and 2 x M8 x 22 allen key head bolt on the RHS. My 4 x bolts are all allen key heads and accept 6mm allen keys, exactly the same size allen key as for our rear CV joint bolts in Oz. Maybe you ppl in US have 8mm allen keys in the heads, but not here on mine anyway. I wonder why Etka lists the LHS bolts as being hex head bolts, because there isn't enough space to fit a hex head socket there. Anyone here got original hex head bolts on the LHS?
 
Ok now here's a curly one for you all to mull over .... the replacement wp kit. It just so happens that a wp kit has been handed down with this vehicle through subsequent owners, unused, just stored & sitting in waiting, seemingly in good nic, since at least 1992. So begs the question, should I now use it here? The 2 x O rings with it and the 1 x flat gasket all look and test fine. The only question I have is ... what exactly is the type and material of the internal seal in the WP housing? If we know that, we may have a clue then as to its likely condition, its durability unused, maybe it is perfectly fine or maybe there is otherwise a good reason to doubt it. I know its just too easy to say ... "well just go buy a new one". But on balance, I'd consider using it if the type of seal in it can be identified and known to be unaffected by time in a sealed and unused state. Guys, care to tear my theorising to shreds and NOT make my day or otherwise make me a happy chappy? Remember, I suspect even this replacement WP will probably outlast me anyway .... in my opinion!
 
I'm heading out now .... may have more to say later on.
 
Cheers.
 
Ken
 
 
 
 

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: bergodaz@ozemail.com.au
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 23:23:11 +0000
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump

 
Ken, removing the pulley just gives you a bit of room to work with & gives you a good view of what you are doing- properly aligning things & making sure you have properly sealed all hoses and gaskets.Sure the woodruff key is a pain when reinstalling the pulley ,but this pain is nothing compared to th pain you'll feel if you finish the job only to find leaks in your work-I've made that mistake-but only once.Just one other bit of advice, if you are using hose clamps , try to position them so you can easily retighten them later. Good luck with your repair.Eddie.

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@...> wrote:
>
>
> Eddie,
>
> Yes I've already mastered expanding and holding the distance between the main drive pulley and tinware to easily fit a 30mm socket and driver onto the drive pulley bolt. Made up an expanding bizzo to do that ... works pretty good. In the back of the drive pulley are 2 holes on opposing sides, they accept the special VW tool that locks fast the drive pulley fast so the pulley bolt can be removed/installed. I found that instead, depending upon whether you are taking the bolt in or out, select the appropriate hole and insert a long socket through the hole ... think its around 14-16mm size (can't remember). Shift the pulley around until it jambs the socket against the engine casing, just as the special tool does. Then you can loosen/tighten the pulley bolt. I must say though I've chickened out so far on removing the pulley. Also someone here recently said they had a deal of trouble refitting the pulley, in particular due to the difficulty re-aligning the woodruff key.
>
>
>
> Any other hints you have please doing the water pump R&R? Tools? etc etc. Thanks a lot.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: bergodaz@...
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 07:46:43 +0000
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: R&R water pump
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Ken ,Ive done that R&R about 5 times.4 with crank pulley in & 1 with it out. The job is EASY with it out, so if you can, get it out.
> I can force the tinware back far enough to get a socket onto the pulley bolt.Cheers, Eddie.
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > All,
> >
> >
> >
> > Looks like it's finally happened to me too ..... and out of the blue, for no particular reason other than I'm guessing ... its old age. It may well be the original pump, if so, then it's done 202,000klms.
> >
> >
> >
> > I recently noticed a coolant leak and traced it as coming from the drain hole on the water pump housing, so I assume the internal seal on the water pump shaft has finally spat the dummy ... nicely timed for pre Xmas break/businesses closures/Batemans Bay Tour prepping.
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been boning up on past posts and links, hopefully to find enough courage to attempt this R&R insitu procedure. I agree, doing this sort of project, the first time is always the hardest.
> >
> >
> >
> > However I am still unclear on how far one has to go with dismantling surrounding components so as to enable enough clearance to allow the water pump to be shifted rearwards on the threaded studs so as to clear everything for removal. Anyone know please, with some clarity?
> >
> >
> >
> > For example, it seems to be accepted that the main drive pulley doesn't require removal. Assuming that is the case, how does one then deal with the metal coolant pipe bolted to the RHS of the water pump housing and running horizontally across behind and toward the bottom of the main drive pulley? Does this pipe, once unbolted from the water pump, have to be physically removed altogether for clearance reasons or can it simply be angled up or down to clear for the water pump housing removal? It'd be nice if it didn't require removal but someone may say otherwise?
> >
> >
> >
> > Some say remove the tinware ... yes or no or just loosen it to offer some better access for tools to bolts, clamps, screws etc if needed or is it really unnecessary ... just leave the tinware as is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Some say remove the complete distributor for necessary better access for tools etc .... yes or no? Or just remove the distributor cap and rotor or leave as is?
> >
> >
> >
> > Any other critical procedure and/or component issue I need to know about?
> >
> >
> >
> > Any help, hints and tips for a successful water pump changeover would be welcome. TIA.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Ken
> >
>