Radiator

Bugger the photo's don't seem to work in the text body.



On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Peter Wilson peterw1000@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Had a little experience with radiator spec
the fins per inch ?
number of tubes and or the rows of tubes
These two factors designate how well the heat is transferred.
The fluid and the fan <air Speed> utilise the above
Worth noting that the fins can be made of different thickness materials <copper or Aluminium > However the copper sort of fazed out with the plastic tank
Never have compared different T3 radiators to see what the thick and thin of it all is.
Maybe some help to someone
Cheers Guys peter

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Richard, I've never seen or heard of your radiator being used in an OZ T3, so may not meet required specs. It sounds to me like its volume and surface area is inadequate, you may have a problem running at correct temperature, usually midway or a tad less on temp gauge.


Both the OEM (48mm) and BEHR (40-45mm) radiator overall core width equates to the width of the coolant tubing. Except the tubing is shaped like a series of flattened circles, running horizontally, each separated by about say 12mm.


From memory, there is a difference between those two brands by about a factor of one as to the number of horizontal tubes.


Maybe your old original radiator, flushed and tested professionally, might be the better solution.

Ken




From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> on behalf of cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Thursday, 1 September 2016 12:09 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Radiator

Hi Ken, that mirrors my experiences (well except my original was cooling fine, it was suspected it had a leak, which it didn't, so I have it as a spare)

When you measure the core, what are you actually measuring? The Thermex one I have, the core was 30mm, but the tubes were ~12mm diameter and round, so not only were there fewer tubes, the surface area is also much smaller.

Richard



---In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com, <unclekenz@...> wrote :

Hi ALL,

This topic never fails to confuse most of us, not helped by Just Kampers and Tooleys questionable offerings.


JKs ... is a very poor joke at 30mm core thickness, in fact this radiator ought only be sold in cold climate markets elsewhere:

Goto: http://www.justkampers.c om.au/068-121-068-b-c-radiator -vw-t25-petrol-and-diesel- models-1983-1992.html

Radiator VW T25 Petrol and Diesel Models 1983–1992 . JK Part Number: J13629 OEM Part Number: 068-121-068/BC

From memory, someone here, possibly Scott, had to return one to JKs upon discovering its "thinness".


Tooleys ... BEHR part no. 8MK 376 713 631, the model quite a few of us have purchased, has a core thickness approx. 40mm.


My old VW OEM stamped radiator 068 121 253 E that I took out, has a core thickness of 48mm.


Along with installing the BEHR radiator, I took the opportunity to fit a replacement baffle set:

http://www.gowesty.com/search- results.php?search_phrase=radi ator+baffles


Also fitted a new radiator temperature switch. Bit sus though, think it was Chinese. Tested it first, found to be in working range.

Also fitted a sponge strip on the horizontal top of the radiator, similar idea as shown in ETKA parts catalogue schematic.


Observations: OEM vs BEHR.

OEM core is around 8mm thicker than the BEHR. Big OEM tick.

OEM quality of core construction is clearly superior than the BEHR. The core's coolant flow tubes look stronger and with larger volume and the separation foils are way way more robust. Big OEM tick.

The BEHR is an exact replacement fit for the space. Big tick.

Located vertically midway on both sides of the OEM is a metal bump strip to protect the core when fitting/removing the radiator. These are missing from the BEHR. I relocated them to the BEHR.

Fitting the GoWesty baffle set was a good idea, especially given two originals were missing! Obviously because when the Prestige A/C system was installed, they removed one vertical baffle that otherwise would be in the way of the A/C pipe reticulation they installed!

With a bit of thought, patience and experimentation, I successfully modified the baffle just enough so it again fitted quite well in the available space, despite the interference of the A/C pipework.


Prior to installing the BEHR, the OEM tended to run hot, especially when waiting at traffic lights, this scenario with 50-50% G12+ coolant and distilled water.


After installing the BEHR with same coolant mix, plus with full baffle set installed, the temp gauge is now reading too cold. If this persists through upcoming summer heat trial, then I'll drop back to a 40-60% mix.


So in conclusion, I really can't say for sure which of the components contributed most to the change in the temp gauge reading. Radiator? Baffles? Both? Winter temperature? But clearly, the removed old OEM radiator is a clear winner in terms of build quality and core thickness. But then again, the BEHR seems so far to be doing the cooling job well.


The other thought in hindsight was to instead, have the old OEM professionally cleaned and tested and if OK, try a refit and trial. Maybe too fiddly though.

I'm keeping the OEM for now, if anyone wants more info about it, let me know.

Cheers.

Ken









From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> on behalf of plander@... [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2016 6:04 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Radiator

Be careful ordering a radiator from Tooley's. I ordered one after asking the specs to see if it was the thin or the thick one. He read the part number and specs from their catalogue instead of the radiator itself. When it arrived it was the thin one which is the same as Just Kampers sells for $100 less. It was a drama to get my money back.





--
Cheers
Paul Dumais
Aerospace Engineer
Thanks Ken
I googled Kings radiator service and ended up with Nerang Radiators.
Apparently most of all the Radiator service companies have been amalgamated.
Anyway Richard at Nerang Radiators said they have a free radiator, flow/pressure test on offer.
So I will head up there next week.
I haven't been able to source the rh metal x-over pipe to plastic hose in Aus, so
I am going to order the silicon hoses from Van cafe unless anyone has issue with them.
Cheers
Paul

On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Paul Dumais <paul.d.dumais@gmail.com> wrote:
Bugger the photo's don't seem to work in the text body.



On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Peter Wilson peterw1000@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Had a little experience with radiator spec
the fins per inch ?
number of tubes and or the rows of tubes
These two factors designate how well the heat is transferred.
The fluid and the fan <air Speed> utilise the above
Worth noting that the fins can be made of different thickness materials <copper or Aluminium > However the copper sort of fazed out with the plastic tank
Never have compared different T3 radiators to see what the thick and thin of it all is.
Maybe some help to someone
Cheers Guys peter

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> wrote:

Richard, I've never seen or heard of your radiator being used in an OZ T3, so may not meet required specs. It sounds to me like its volume and surface area is inadequate, you may have a problem running at correct temperature, usually midway or a tad less on temp gauge.


Both the OEM (48mm) and BEHR (40-45mm) radiator overall core width equates to the width of the coolant tubing. Except the tubing is shaped like a series of flattened circles, running horizontally, each separated by about say 12mm.


From memory, there is a difference between those two brands by about a factor of one as to the number of horizontal tubes.


Maybe your old original radiator, flushed and tested professionally, might be the better solution.

Ken




From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> on behalf of cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Thursday, 1 September 2016 12:09 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Radiator

Hi Ken, that mirrors my experiences (well except my original was cooling fine, it was suspected it had a leak, which it didn't, so I have it as a spare)

When you measure the core, what are you actually measuring? The Thermex one I have, the core was 30mm, but the tubes were ~12mm diameter and round, so not only were there fewer tubes, the surface area is also much smaller.

Richard



---In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com, <unclekenz@...> wrote :

Hi ALL,

This topic never fails to confuse most of us, not helped by Just Kampers and Tooleys questionable offerings.


JKs ... is a very poor joke at 30mm core thickness, in fact this radiator ought only be sold in cold climate markets elsewhere:

Goto: http://www.justkampers.c om.au/068-121-068-b-c-radiator -vw-t25-petrol-and-diesel-mode ls-1983-1992.html

Radiator VW T25 Petrol and Diesel Models 1983–1992 . JK Part Number: J13629 OEM Part Number: 068-121-068/BC

From memory, someone here, possibly Scott, had to return one to JKs upon discovering its "thinness".


Tooleys ... BEHR part no. 8MK 376 713 631, the model quite a few of us have purchased, has a core thickness approx. 40mm.


My old VW OEM stamped radiator 068 121 253 E that I took out, has a core thickness of 48mm.


Along with installing the BEHR radiator, I took the opportunity to fit a replacement baffle set:

http://www.gowesty.com/search- results.php?search_phrase=radi ator+baffles


Also fitted a new radiator temperature switch. Bit sus though, think it was Chinese. Tested it first, found to be in working range.

Also fitted a sponge strip on the horizontal top of the radiator, similar idea as shown in ETKA parts catalogue schematic.


Observations: OEM vs BEHR.

OEM core is around 8mm thicker than the BEHR. Big OEM tick.

OEM quality of core construction is clearly superior than the BEHR. The core's coolant flow tubes look stronger and with larger volume and the separation foils are way way more robust. Big OEM tick.

The BEHR is an exact replacement fit for the space. Big tick.

Located vertically midway on both sides of the OEM is a metal bump strip to protect the core when fitting/removing the radiator. These are missing from the BEHR. I relocated them to the BEHR.

Fitting the GoWesty baffle set was a good idea, especially given two originals were missing! Obviously because when the Prestige A/C system was installed, they removed one vertical baffle that otherwise would be in the way of the A/C pipe reticulation they installed!

With a bit of thought, patience and experimentation, I successfully modified the baffle just enough so it again fitted quite well in the available space, despite the interference of the A/C pipework.


Prior to installing the BEHR, the OEM tended to run hot, especially when waiting at traffic lights, this scenario with 50-50% G12+ coolant and distilled water.


After installing the BEHR with same coolant mix, plus with full baffle set installed, the temp gauge is now reading too cold. If this persists through upcoming summer heat trial, then I'll drop back to a 40-60% mix.


So in conclusion, I really can't say for sure which of the components contributed most to the change in the temp gauge reading. Radiator? Baffles? Both? Winter temperature? But clearly, the removed old OEM radiator is a clear winner in terms of build quality and core thickness. But then again, the BEHR seems so far to be doing the cooling job well.


The other thought in hindsight was to instead, have the old OEM professionally cleaned and tested and if OK, try a refit and trial. Maybe too fiddly though.

I'm keeping the OEM for now, if anyone wants more info about it, let me know.

Cheers.

Ken









From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> on behalf of plander@... [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2016 6:04 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroup s.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Radiator

Be careful ordering a radiator from Tooley's. I ordered one after asking the specs to see if it was the thin or the thick one. He read the part number and specs from their catalogue instead of the radiator itself. When it arrived it was the thin one which is the same as Just Kampers sells for $100 less. It was a drama to get my money back.





--
Cheers
Paul Dumais
Aerospace Engineer



--
Cheers
Paul Dumais
Aerospace Engineer

Hi I spoke to Richard Tooley yesterday from Tooleys and he measured the Behr radiator's he has in stock (x4) 
068 121 253DG and they are 43mm thick. He told me the "G" in the code is a Tooley's code for German.  I have ordered this Radiator so will see soon how it pans out.  Regards Greg N WA
 
Greg
Do you mind me asking how much it was?
Cheers
Paul

On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 9:35 AM, greg.navarro61@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi I spoke to Richard Tooley yesterday from Tooleys and he measured the Behr radiator's he has in stock (x4)
068 121 253DG and they are 43mm thick. He told me the "G" in the code is a Tooley's code for German. I have ordered this Radiator so will see soon how it pans out. Regards Greg N WA




--
Cheers
Paul Dumais
Aerospace Engineer

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the pics, they worked just fine this end and spurred me on to re-check and so snap a few pics as well.


So pics confirm your and my radiators are original OEMs with VW/Audi stamped logos and same part numbers.


My vernier shows the core thickness at 46.80mm, and not my previously stated 48mm. Need my glasses checked!

The other pic showing 45.00mm was the width of the indented frame at the end.


All this now suggests the BEHR core is around 3 to 4mm thinner than the OEM.


You can also shine a torch into the thermostat hole and see how much, if any, residual crap has built up on the inner surfaces and perhaps blocking the tubes ... a bit of a guide as to general health.


Interesting difference is your OEM radiator core and frame appears to have been painted black, whereas my OEM is bare aluminium all over.

Cheers.

Ken


  


Hi Paul Radiator was $418 + GST. Sorry for the late reply I have been away.  Greg N

Hi Mark I met with Nick and he definitely seems the real deal.  Felt very comfortable that he could do the job.  He also put me on to Grant Kometer who is a man who can make sure the crank and bearings and what ever else goes on in the bottom of the engine is right.  I spoke to Grant and he had 3 x T3 engines on his workshop floor. have you come across this man? Hope your dessert trip is going well.  Greg N
Hi Greg no I don't know him. Where is he what does he do ? Still have my old syncro motor I want to get rid of. Yeah Nick isn't an apprentice that's for sure!

Don't know much about him Mark, Nick swears by him when it comes to engine rebuilds.  I will let you know more after I meet him in a month.

Greg N 
Hi All
Back onto radiators.
Has anyone got a leed for a good radiator?
Stokers haven't got any.
Mine is slowly leaking where the plastic side tanks meet the metal.
Cheers
Paul Dumais
Aerospace Engineer


On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 11:02 PM greg.navarro61@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Don't know much about him Mark, Nick swears by him when it comes to engine rebuilds. I will let you know more after I meet him in a month.

Greg N
Mick motors have radiator made in South Africa with full depth. But not cheap. Peter

On Tue, 11 Dec. 2018, 6:26 pm Paul Dumais paul.d.dumais@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi All
Back onto radiators.
Has anyone got a leed for a good radiator?
Stokers haven't got any.
Mine is slowly leaking where the plastic side tanks meet the metal.
Cheers
Paul Dumais
Aerospace Engineer


On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 11:02 PM greg.navarro61@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Don't know much about him Mark, Nick swears by him when it comes to engine rebuilds. I will let you know more after I meet him in a month.

Greg N

I got mine from Tooleys in Sydney. Highly recommended. Peter from Port

I bought mine recently from Tooleys also no problems and very happy with product and service.
Be careful buying from Tooleys. I called them and asked the specifications and the told me it was Behr Hella made in SA and 42mm. When it arrived it was the 32mm one that Just Kampers sell for $150 cheaper. I had to take it back to Tooleys to get a refund. Make sure that you specify before ordering or even better if you can, go there yourself and pick it up.

Noted Phil. I made sure it was the thicker one when ordering as someone else had an issue with them I believe. But it was all good and it arrived quickly and is now happy in its new home!! Peter from Port.

Similar experience, my mechanic replaced the radiator with one from Tooleys and was the thinner radiator supplied. Unfortunately I never realized until the next summer so too late to return. Was a good brand radiator out of Europe, just wrong spec for our climate. Mechanic said all the part numbers were correct, so just the wrong one supplied.

Interesting point though, the only time I realized there was an issue was a 45degC day and on a long climb in the hills north of Brisbane. The second stage of the fan kicked in (never had that before). I could have just accepted that normal for a hot day and never realized. I put the Behr one in straight after that.

Richard 
Hi Richard,
So it seems, from local sources, the Behr SA radiator is the only "thicker" replacement available here.

Before fitting my Behr SA, I did an A-B "quality" comparison between my original (stamped 1989) radiator I took out and the new Behr. Sad to say I concluded the Behr was definitely not the equal of the original. However, despite that finding, the Behr is doing the job so far just fine. Begs the question ... will it last as long as my genuine first rad? ... 27 years plus. 

Remains a mystery and annoying for many, as to why it is that local sources stock and mistakenly sell a thinner model T3 radiator here. As far as I can tell, according to Etka parts catalogue, all officially imported watercooled Oz T3s came with the same thicker radiator. The thinner was used on T3s elsewhere.
Cheers.
Ken 
  

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2018 8:58 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Radiator
 
 

Similar experience, my mechanic replaced the radiator with one from Tooleys and was the thinner radiator supplied. Unfortunately I never realized until the next summer so too late to return. Was a good brand radiator out of Europe, just wrong spec for our climate. Mechanic said all the part numbers were correct, so just the wrong one supplied.

Interesting point though, the only time I realized there was an issue was a 45degC day and on a long climb in the hills north of Brisbane. The second stage of the fan kicked in (never had that before). I could have just accepted that normal for a hot day and never realized. I put the Behr one in straight after that.

Richard 

Same findings I had Ken, Behr out of SA certainly not the capacity of the original. But as I mentioned it was a very hot day on a winding hilly road that made me looking into cooling issues. So there would be a lot of over capacity in the original.  It's a case of the best available currently.
As for the switch to turn the fan on, my thoughts are still factory original does everything you need. If you wanted do anything you'd bypass the thermostat to cool the engine down because even if you cool down at the radiator further, the thermostat just blocks the flow to maintain engine temps.
Richard