Running over-rich, blowing black smoke

Thought I would share the learning curve ... gave the van it's annual refurbishment before the rego check a few months ago, and fitted new temperature sensor and O2 sensor.

Has covered several thousand km since then with no issues.

Day trip down to the coast last week, ran perfectly until cruising along the Princes Highway at 100 km, started to run a bit rough, lost some power, noticed in the rear-view mirror that black smoke was billowing out the exhaust.

Pulled over, engine idling roughly, switched off, restarted half a minute later - running perfectly.

Rejoined the highway, after a couple of minutes the symptoms returned.

Pulled over, lifted the engine lid, everything looked ok, suspected the Throttle Position Switch, disconnected the plug, started up, ran perfectly, congratulated myself, only for it to happen again a few minutes later.

Re-connected TPS, removed Fuel Pressure Regulator, and replaced it with the spare.

Ran well for a couple of minutes.

Finally bit the bullet and removed the nearly-new O2 sensor and replaced it with the old one.

Cured.

Now running better than ever.



Hi Roger,
Reminds me the symptoms you describe are much the same as experienced by Hartmut heading back to Port after the VW Macksville weekend in August. It was quite a struggle but he did at least finally manage to make it home. Happened all of a sudden for no plausible reason. Not sure if the actual culprit was identified, though a lot of remediation work was done to cover all possibilities, to finally sort it.

Begs the question, was there dissimilarities between the old and new O2 sensors? 
Cheers.
Ken

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2018 10:59 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Running over-rich, blowing black smoke
 
 

Thought I would share the learning curve ... gave the van it's annual refurbishment before the rego check a few months ago, and fitted new temperature sensor and O2 sensor.

Has covered several thousand km since then with no issues.

Day trip down to the coast last week, ran perfectly until cruising along the Princes Highway at 100 km, started to run a bit rough, lost some power, noticed in the rear-view mirror that black smoke was billowing out the exhaust.

Pulled over, engine idling roughly, switched off, restarted half a minute later - running perfectly.

Rejoined the highway, after a couple of minutes the symptoms returned.

Pulled over, lifted the engine lid, everything looked ok, suspected the Throttle Position Switch, disconnected the plug, started up, ran perfectly, congratulated myself, only for it to happen again a few minutes later.

Re-connected TPS, removed Fuel Pressure Regulator, and replaced it with the spare.

Ran well for a couple of minutes.

Finally bit the bullet and removed the nearly-new O2 sensor and replaced it with the old one.

Cured.

Now running better than ever.



My 2wd auto that I just bought has a similar issue but is running nicely with the O2 sensor unplugged.

Wife drove behind me to the panel shop with it and said it was running very rich (smelly).

Where to get a good O2 sensor????

Cheers,

Scott

On 13/12/2018 10:59 pm, gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Thought I would share the learning curve ... gave the van it's annual refurbishment before the rego check a few months ago, and fitted new temperature sensor and O2 sensor.

Has covered several thousand km since then with no issues.

Day trip down to the coast last week, ran perfectly until cruising along the Princes Highway at 100 km, started to run a bit rough, lost some power, noticed in the rear-view mirror that black smoke was billowing out the exhaust.

Pulled over, engine idling roughly, switched off, restarted half a minute later - running perfectly.

Rejoined the highway, after a couple of minutes the symptoms returned.

Pulled over, lifted the engine lid, everything looked ok, suspected the Throttle Position Switch, disconnected the plug, started up, ran perfectly, congratulated myself, only for it to happen again a few minutes later.

< span>Re-connected TPS, removed Fuel Pressure Regulator, and replaced it with the spare.

Ran well for a couple of minutes.

Finally bit the bullet and removed the nearly-new O2 sensor and replaced it with the old one.

Cured.

Now running better than ever.




--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
Thanks Ken for remembering except that it wasn't Macksville but Old Bar 2 seasons back. This makes it even more  interesting as those dreaded symptoms never re occured. 
After the initial fix late at night by Arne the Tristar performed faultlessly and to be honest never again missing a single beat.
What's even more interesting is the consumption as it is down to 
12.6 l/100km and that is town traffic. I had the throttle box rebuilt by Nils, that might contribute to tbe consumption also.
Now, almost forgetting to mention what we did that night in the dark, Arne cleaned EVERY one ground connect / earth connecton there is.
Hart
Sent from my Samsung Mobile on the Telstra Mobile Network

-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 14/12/18 12:55 am (GMT+10:00)
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Running over-rich, blowing black smoke

 

Hi Roger,
Reminds me the symptoms you describe are much the same as experienced by Hartmut heading back to Port after the VW Macksville weekend in August. It was quite a struggle but he did at least finally manage to make it home. Happened all of a sudden for no plausible reason. Not sure if the actual culprit was identified, though a lot of remediation work was done to cover all possibilities, to finally sort it.

Begs the question, was there dissimilarities between the old and new O2 sensors? 
Cheers.
Ken

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2018 10:59 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Running over-rich, blowing black smoke
 
 

Thought I would share the learning curve ... gave the van it's annual refurbishment before the rego check a few months ago, and fitted new temperature sensor and O2 sensor.

Has covered several thousand km since then with no issues.

Day trip down to the coast last week, ran perfectly until cruising along the Princes Highway at 100 km, started to run a bit rough, lost some power, noticed in the rear-view mirror that black smoke was billowing out the exhaust.

Pulled over, engine idling roughly, switched off, restarted half a minute later - running perfectly.

Rejoined the highway, after a couple of minutes the symptoms returned.

Pulled over, lifted the engine lid, everything looked ok, suspected the Throttle Position Switch, disconnected the plug, started up, ran perfectly, congratulated myself, only for it to happen again a few minutes later.

Re-connected TPS, removed Fuel Pressure Regulator, and replaced it with the spare.

Ran well for a couple of minutes.

Finally bit the bullet and removed the nearly-new O2 sensor and replaced it with the old one.

Cured.

Now running better than ever.



Yes, gremlins in old EFI systems can be a challenge. My auto died suddenly a couple of years ago. Re started fine, drove 500m, bucked a couple of times and died again and never re-started. Towed it home and left it parked as I didn't really need it running. Tried a few times over the following few weeks and would not start. It sat for a month or two before I started measuring every part of the EFI system for issues, never found any. Re-connected everything up and has been running fine ever since! I can only assume a bit of corrosion on one of he terminals somewhere.  (it's not a regularly driven car, just around the block every now and then to keep it running)
Richard


---In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, <hartis@...> wrote :

Thanks Ken for remembering except that it wasn't Macksville but Old Bar 2 seasons back. This makes it even more  interesting as those dreaded symptoms never re occured. 
After the initial fix late at night by Arne the Tristar performed faultlessly and to be honest never again missing a single beat.
What's even more interesting is the consumption as it is down to 
12.6 l/100km and that is town traffic. I had the throttle box rebuilt by Nils, that might contribute to tbe consumption also.
Now, almost forgetting to mention what we did that night in the dark, Arne cleaned EVERY one ground connect / earth connecton there is.
Hart
Sent from my Samsung Mobile on the Telstra Mobile Network

-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Garratt unclekenz@... [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 14/12/18 12:55 am (GMT+10:00)
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Running over-rich, blowing black smoke

 

Hi Roger,
Reminds me the symptoms you describe are much the same as experienced by Hartmut heading back to Port after the VW Macksville weekend in August. It was quite a struggle but he did at least finally manage to make it home. Happened all of a sudden for no plausible reason. Not sure if the actual culprit was identified, though a lot of remediation work was done to cover all possibilities, to finally sort it.

Begs the question, was there dissimilarities between the old and new O2 sensors? 
Cheers.
Ken

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of gullyraker53@... [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2018 10:59 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Running over-rich, blowing black smoke
 
 

Thought I would share the learning curve ... gave the van it's annual refurbishment before the rego check a few months ago, and fitted new temperature sensor and O2 sensor.

Has covered several thousand km since then with no issues.

Day trip down to the coast last week, ran perfectly until cruising along the Princes Highway at 100 km, started to run a bit rough, lost some power, noticed in the rear-view mirror that black smoke was billowing out the exhaust.

Pulled over, engine idling roughly, switched off, restarted half a minute later - running perfectly.

Rejoined the highway, after a couple of minutes the symptoms returned.

Pulled over, lifted the engine lid, everything looked ok, suspected the Throttle Position Switch, disconnected the plug, started up, ran perfectly, congratulated myself, only for it to happen again a few minutes later.

Re-connected TPS, removed Fuel Pressure Regulator, and replaced it with the spare.

Ran well for a couple of minutes.

Finally bit the bullet and removed the nearly-new O2 sensor and replaced it with the old one.

Cured.

Now running better than ever.




Regarding your question about the O2 sensor Ken, it wasn't the original. I replace them every year or two, along with the temp sensor.

last time I looked, the genuine sensors were NLA, and most vendors sell crappy generic 2-wire sensors or a sensor with the wrong electrical connector that needs to be spliced to the existing connector.

There has been a lot of discussion on his issue over the years. After a fair bit of research I paid big money to import the 'right' part, but it wasn't. Will have to check the p/n and let you know what it was, so no=one else gets caught.

Will do a bit more research and get back to you with the result.

Meantime, has anyone out there found a source for an O2 sensor that works?


Hi Roger,
I believe I know a quality model, is 3 wire of correct length & correct connectors. Definitely not from Brazil, China etc.
But I'll do some more comparative research too in the meanwhile.
Cheers.
Ken

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Roger Bayley gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 15 December 2018 10:09 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Running over-rich, blowing black smoke
 
 

Regarding your question about the O2 sensor Ken, it wasn't the original. I replace them every year or two, along with the temp sensor.

last time I looked, the genuine sensors were NLA, and most vendors sell crappy generic 2-wire sensors or a sensor with the wrong electrical connector that needs to be spliced to the existing connector.

There has been a lot of discussion on his issue over the years. After a fair bit of research I paid big money to import the 'right' part, but it wasn't. Will have to check the p/n and let you know what it was, so no=one else gets caught.

Will do a bit more research and get back to you with the result.

Meantime, has anyone out there found a source for an O2 sensor that works?
 


Thanks Ken.

The Bosch Book says that Oxygen sensors (or Lambda sensors) are used to measure the mixture of fuel and oxygen fed to the engine to achieve the correct ratio of 14.7:1 at operating temperature, and a little richer when starting from cold. They communicate this information to the ECU which, after taking engine temperature, throttle position and other variables into account, decides how long to open the fuel injector nozzles;

Oxygen Sensors are used to detect the amount of excess oxygen in the exhaust gas after combustion to indicate the relative richness or leanness of mixture composition.

The oxygen sensor contains two porous platinum electrodes with a ceramic electrolyte between them. It compares exhaust gas oxygen levels to atmospheric oxygen and produces a voltage in relation to this.

The voltage produced by the oxygen sensor will be typically as small as 100 mV [lean] up to a maximum of 900 mV [rich]. An active oxygen sensor would cycle between these two points as the engine management system drives the mixture rich and lean to achieve an average sensor voltage of ~465mV. This would represent the mixture ratio of 14.7:1.

This type of operation is normal for a “narrow band” style of sensor; these are used for the majority of standard vehicle applications.


The O2 sender that I removed from my car back in 2002 is a genuine VW unit P/N 025 906 265 B, date-stamped 04/1991, made by Bosch, and it appears that the Bosch P/N is 0 258 003 031. It has 3 wires 60cm long - two white wires to a dual plug, and one black wire to a single plug.

It appears that Bosch no longer manufactures the part. Googling the number merely returns a heap of generic sensors that are made to suit multiple vehicles, usually without the correct wiring connections. Feedback from other sites is that they don't work very well.

Many purveyors of cheap and nasty equiptment have tried to foist 2-wire senders on to the market, or 3-wire senders with incorrect connectors, or no connectors at all, which have to be spliced to the factory wiring.

A well-known local purveyor is advertising what looks (in the photo) like a generic 2-wire unit with 3-wire connectors at a ridiculously high price, so beware. It is advertised under the Bosch part number - check if it is genuine before you buy it.

The correct Bosch unit can be found under the VW P/N or the Bosch P/N 13931. Bosch also makes a generic part 1393 which will work at a pinch, but without the correct wiring.

The Bosch 025 906 265 B units are available at VanCafe and GoWesty, and the latter has a good technical rave on the subject. The ones I have used work well and have the correct connections, but the wires are twice as long as the original. This is not a problem.


The same sensors were used on some other VW models, Audi, Saab, Volvo and Ferrari in the '80's and '90's.

I will call Tooley's on Monday to see if they carry the Bosch units. Everyone needs to carry a spare under the seat, along with a 22mm spanner (there may not be enough room to use a shifter).

The faulty item that caused the problem on my van was a German-made Lowe 0 258 003 957. It looked the goods, but in practise it created a stumble when taking off from cold, but appeared to work well when warm, until the over-fuelling problem occurred after it had been fitted for several thousand k's.

The original item that replaced it is running reasonably well.

Bentley tells us how to check them with a multi-meter. That's the next job ....

Are their any electronic gurus out there who can make a 465 mV gizmo to plug in to the connecting wires to fool the ECU?



Hi all,

On this topic, I found the following O2 sensor from JK.

https://www.justkampers.com.au/025-906-265-b-lambda-sensor-t25-2100cc-1985-to-1992.html

Its a special order so it may take a few weeks to get it but it looks like the original.

Cheers,

Scott

On 16/12/2018 2:11 pm, Roger Bayley gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Thanks Ken.

The Bosch Book says that Oxygen sensors (or Lambda sensors) are used to measure the mixture of fuel and oxygen fed to the engine to achieve the correct ratio of 14.7:1 at operating temperature, and a little richer when starting from cold. They communicate this information to the ECU which, after taking engine temperature, throttle position and other variables into account, decides how long to open the fuel injector nozzles;

Oxygen Sensors are used to detect the amount of excess oxygen in the exhaust gas after combustion to indicate the relative richness or leanness of mixture composition.

The oxygen sensor contains two porous platinum electrodes with a ceramic electrolyte between them. It compares exhaust gas oxygen levels to atmospheric oxygen and produces a voltage in relation to this.

The voltage produced by the oxygen sensor will be typically as small as 100 mV [lean] up to a maximum of 900 mV [rich]. An active oxygen sensor would cycle between these two points as the engine management system drives the mixture rich and lean to achieve an average sensor voltage of ~465mV. This would represent the mixture ratio of 14.7:1.

This type of operation is normal for a “narrow band” style of sensor; these are used for the majority of standard vehicle applications.


The O2 sender that I removed from my car back in 2002 is a genuine VW unit P/N 025 906 265 B, date-stamped 04/1991, made by Bosch, and it appears that the Bosch P/N is 0 258 003 031. It has 3 wires 60cm long - two white wires to a dual plug, and one black wire to a single plug.

It appears that Bosch no longer manufactures the part. Googling the number merely returns a heap of generic sensors that are made to suit multiple vehicles, usually without the correct wiring connections. Feedback from other sites is that they don't work very well.

Many purveyors of cheap and nasty equiptment have tried to foist 2-wire senders on to the market, or 3-wire senders with incorrect connectors, or no connectors at all, which have to be spliced to the factory wiring.

A well-known local purveyor is advertising what looks (in the photo) like a generic 2-wire unit with 3-wire connectors at a ridiculously high price, so beware. It is advertised under the Bosch part number - check if it is genuine before you buy it.

The correct Bosch unit can be found under the VW P/N or the Bosch P/N 13931. Bosch also makes a generic part 1393 which will work at a pinch, but without the correct wiring.

The Bosch 025 906 265 B units are available at VanCafe and GoWesty, and the latter has a good technical rave on the subject. The ones I have used work well and have the correct connections, but the wires are twice as long as the original. This is not a problem.


The same sensors were used on some other VW models, Audi, Saab, Volvo and Ferrari in the '80's and '90's.

I will call Tooley's on Monday to see if they carry the Bosch units. Everyone needs to carry a spare under the seat, along with a 22mm spanner (there may not be enough room to use a shifter).

The faulty item that caused the problem on my van was a German-made Lowe 0 258 003 957. It looked the goods, but in practise it created a stumble when taking off from cold, but appeared to work well when warm, until the over-fuelling problem occurred after it had been fitted for several thousand k's.

The original item that replaced it is running reasonably well.

Bentley tells us how to check them with a multi-meter. That's the next job ....

Are their any electronic gurus out there who can make a 465 mV gizmo to plug in to the connecting wires to fool the ECU?




--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
Hi Roger,
My concern now with Bosch products is country of manufacture. Have they done the same as Meyle for example and also farmed off manufacture to the PRC. Many people I believe are now loathe to buy Meyle "inferior" parts.

Unlike your and my original oxygen sensors, clearly stamped "Bosch" and "Germany", the current crop of Bosch products have no markings at all as to the current country of manufacture, hence my hesitation now with Bosch products. As well, I  see retailers of Bosch oxygen sensors for example, no longer state in their advertising ... "Made in Germany".

Interesting then that when Rudi replaced my oxygen sensor years ago, he installed an NGK ... the same brand as the well acclaimed manufacturer of quality spark plugs made in Japan, certainly I for one prefer and use them.

I've had no problems since with my NGK oxygen sensor ... definitely not made in PRC.

Cheers.
Ken  

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Roger Bayley gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 16 December 2018 2:11 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Running over-rich, blowing black smoke
 
 

Thanks Ken.

The Bosch Book says that Oxygen sensors (or Lambda sensors) are used to measure the mixture of fuel and oxygen fed to the engine to achieve the correct ratio of 14.7:1 at operating temperature, and a little richer when starting from cold. They communicate this information to the ECU which, after taking engine temperature, throttle position and other variables into account, decides how long to open the fuel injector nozzles;

Oxygen Sensors are used to detect the amount of excess oxygen in the exhaust gas after combustion to indicate the relative richness or leanness of mixture composition.

The oxygen sensor contains two porous platinum electrodes with a ceramic electrolyte between them. It compares exhaust gas oxygen levels to atmospheric oxygen and produces a voltage in relation to this.

The voltage produced by the oxygen sensor will be typically as small as 100 mV [lean] up to a maximum of 900 mV [rich]. An active oxygen sensor would cycle between these two points as the engine management system drives the mixture rich and lean to achieve an average sensor voltage of ~465mV. This would represent the mixture ratio of 14.7:1.

This type of operation is normal for a “narrow band” style of sensor; these are used for the majority of standard vehicle applications.


The O2 sender that I removed from my car back in 2002 is a genuine VW unit P/N 025 906 265 B, date-stamped 04/1991, made by Bosch, and it appears that the Bosch P/N is 0 258 003 031. It has 3 wires 60cm long - two white wires to a dual plug, and one black  wire to a single plug.

It appears that Bosch no longer manufactures the part. Googling the number merely returns a heap of generic sensors that are made to suit multiple vehicles, usually without the correct wiring connections. Feedback from other sites is that they don't work very well.

Many purveyors of cheap and nasty equiptment have tried to foist 2-wire senders on to the market, or 3-wire senders with incorrect connectors, or no connectors at all, which have to be spliced to the factory wiring.

A well-known local purveyor is advertising what looks (in the photo) like a generic 2-wire unit with 3-wire connectors at a ridiculously high price, so beware. It is advertised under the Bosch part number - check if it is genuine before you buy it.  

The correct Bosch unit can be found under the VW P/N or the Bosch P/N 13931. Bosch also makes a generic part 1393 which will work at a pinch, but without the correct wiring.

The Bosch 025 906 265 B units are available at VanCafe and GoWesty, and the latter has a good technical rave on the subject. The ones I have used work well and have the correct connections, but the wires are twice as long as the original. This is not a problem.


The same sensors were used on some other VW models, Audi, Saab, Volvo and Ferrari in the '80's and '90's.

I will call Tooley's on Monday to see if they carry the Bosch units. Everyone needs to carry a spare under the seat, along with a 22mm spanner (there may not be enough room to use a shifter).

The faulty item that caused the problem on my van was a German-made Lowe 0 258 003 957. It looked the goods, but in practise it created a stumble when taking off from cold, but appeared to work well when warm, until the over-fuelling problem occurred after it had been fitted for several thousand k's.

The original item that replaced it is running reasonably well.

Bentley tells us how to check them with a multi-meter. That's the next job ....

Are their any electronic gurus out there who can make a 465 mV gizmo to plug in to the connecting wires to fool the ECU?



 

Thanks for your replies, Ken and Scott.

Ken, I would love to know the part number for your NGK unit, but I hesitate to ask you to crawl under the car with a wire brush and mirror to have a look. Will search the net instead. Does the engine runs sweetly? Much soot around the tailpipe?

Comments about Bosch are widespread. Many people complain that their coils ain't what they used to be.

Scott, from the photograph, that JK unit looks like a two-wire unit masquerading as a 3-wire. Might be similar quality to the High-Tension ignition leads that they sell ... friend of mine bought some, and then spent the next few weeks and handfuls of cash trying to sort out the misfire. Put the old leads back in - voila!

A new problem has emerged over the last couple of years - its now a lot harder to identify the difference between good quality and rubbish parts.

Roger.


Thanks for the tips Roger.

I though the photo showed 3 wires - two in the main block and one for the fibre optic connection (as I call it).

But is that what you get?

I have seen people advertise certain things with a photo and what you get is something totally different.

Who knows unless you try it out.

I'm sure they would refund if you weren't happy.

Cheers,

Scott

On 17/12/2018 12:59 pm, Roger Bayley gullyraker53@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Thanks for your replies, Ken and Scott.

Ken, I would love to know the part number for your NGK unit, but I hesitate to ask you to crawl under the car with a wire brush and mirror to have a look. Will search the net instead. Does the engine runs sweetly? Much soot around the tailpipe?

Comments about Bosch are widespread. Many people complain that their coils ain't what they used to be.

Scott, from the photograph, that JK unit looks like a two-wire unit masquerading as a 3-wire. Might be similar quality to the High-Tension ignition leads that they sell ... friend of mine bought some, and then spent the next few weeks and handfuls of cash trying to sort out the misfire. Put the old leads back in - voila!

A new problem has emerged over the last couple of years - its now a lot harder to identify the difference between good quality and rubbish parts.

Roger.



--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
I bought an O2 sensor from Tooley's about 2 years ago and it was the correct Bosch Germany with correct wiring. Unfortunately I sold it with the Doka.