syncro 2.1 wbx into a 2wd T3 and subi drivetrain conversions

1
Hi All,

Apologies in advance to those who find my actions somewhat sacsyncrolegious.

With the intention of converting my first Telecom Syncro 'Synthia'to a subi drivetrain, i sold her 2.1 wbx motor to my mate and mechanic Brian to replace he's blown motor in his 2wd T3 transporter.

Unfortunately he has not been able to get it going.
He has done every check in the manual, swapped computers, dizzys, coils, relays, checked fuses etc.
There is no spark and no power at the hall sensor.
The manual points to the computer.
However we used his computer at one stage to get my van going originally.
He has tried another computer known to be good to no avail and is going try my computer in the morning.

Has anyone got any ideas as to the possible problem here?
Other than syncro motors should be only be used in syncros!

Brian has noticed some things that i didn't know:
Apparently the motors sit 40mm higher in a 2wd.
the exhaust and the tinware are different.
The thermostat housing is also different as are some of the hoses.

The sale of this motor has gone towards the purchase of my second Syncro 'Sylia' also a ex telcom van.
It's quite an upgrade as this van has windows installed all around including a sun roof and headliner.
It has a rocker rear seat/bed and is engineered and registered as a five seater.
Most importantly though it has a fourth gear, which I never had on 'Synthia. I bought the aftermarket 3rd/4th hub slider from Alan at Stokers but have never managed to get the time to head up to Bribie Island to get Rudi to to the rebuild.

For both syncros I am seriously considering a full subi drivetrain conversion using the subaru gears reversed ring and pinion and flipping a subi rear diff.
I am about to start investigating the geometry to make sure everything will fit easily.
Apparently the subi box exits at the top rather than the bottom like the syncro box so there may be a clearance issue.
Also there is a floor stiffener that may interfere with the box.
At the moment there are no reversed 5.43 ring and pinions offered, so a flipped subi diff is the only option if you wish to run the subi box and motor.
Todd at Subi reversed gears has put a flipped subi diff in his manx.
The coverplate can be rotated 180 deg to put the breather at the top.
So as long as everything can fit I would have to come up with a diff mount, a drive shaft and a gear linkage set up.
Everything else is available from Todd and small cars.
I figure this full drivetrain conversion is a lot of work, but someone has to do it and being an engineer and competent 3d modeler I think it may as well be me.
If it can be made to happen it means that the sycro's can continue to run and have modern updates to their drivetrain for as long as subi keep their flat four configuration.
I would love any advice or info anyone has regarding this conversion?
Cheers
Paul Dumais
2
re
Brian has noticed some things that I didn't know:
Apparently the motors sit 40mm higher in a 2wd.
the exhaust and the tinware are different.
The thermostat housing is also different as are some of the hoses."
 
yup, all correct.
Can't imagine why you're having so much trouble getting the engine to run in another T3 van.
Is the ecu firing the injectors ?
ECU's ...at least in the US models I work on swap around just fine ..
as long as it's a 2.1 ecu .....'pretty sure' on that.
  Ours can be either Bosch, or Trimph-Adler make..
and there is a suffic D on the vw part number for later ones ..
but I think they'll all run any 2.1 wbxr engine. 
   are you sure the plugs didn't just get fouled with petrol  ?
 
on your major re-do of a syncro drivetrain with subaur-based transmission and front diff ...
I'm a little bit 'why re-invent the wheel' ?
 
Syncro parts may 'like money a bit' ....say Viscoupling issues and virbration issues and what not ..
but they work fine,
and those parts are available 'everywhere' ....at least from our North American view point ..whether we get them here in North America or out of Germany or whatever..
there is a LOT of that stuff changing hands, find their way onto syncro T's etc. 
 And they're basically pretty good I think.
 
so sure ..if you want to ..but sure sounds like a lot of work and expense to me .
plus you are putting 'car' compenents into a much bigger heavier vehicle.
 
the primary reason I can think of for modified subaru transaxles in 2WD rear wheel drive VW based vheicles is to get the gear ratios ...5 of them with fairly high gearing. 
 T3 vans in all froms tend to be a little undergeared for high speed driving ..
and VW does not have a  true Van close ratio 5 speed trans ..
so for those reasons a subaru trans in a rear wheel drive 2WD vehicle like a Manx makes a lot of sense..
but I don't see it for a Syncro too much myself..
but .........go for it !
 It'll be a great project.
 
( I don't think there is an AWD Porche 911 car with non-electronic AWD transmission ..
but if there is .....that configuration, the rear hung 911 engine, like a T3 van's layout, gives a transmisison that turns the right way for use in a T3 ....and such a car has a matching front diff. ..
though I don't think in a pure manual non-electronic layout , though not sure on that. And the parts would be very expensive.  And if you  pay enough ...in europe I think you can get some super expensive Audi-or whatever- based transmissions giving you what you'd like. ) 
Scott
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 4:48 AM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro 2.1 wbx into a 2wd T3 and subi drivetrain conversions

 

Hi All,

Apologies in advance to those who find my actions somewhat sacsyncrolegious.

With the intention of converting my first Telecom Syncro 'Synthia'to a subi drivetrain, i sold her 2.1 wbx motor to my mate and mechanic Brian to replace he's blown motor in his 2wd T3 transporter.

Unfortunately he has not been able to get it going.
He has done every check in the manual, swapped computers, dizzys, coils, relays, checked fuses etc.
There is no spark and no power at the hall sensor.
The manual points to the computer.
However we used his computer at one stage to get my van going originally.
He has tried another computer known to be good to no avail and is going try my computer in the morning.

Has anyone got any ideas as to the possible problem here?
Other than syncro motors should be only be used in syncros!

Brian has noticed some things that i didn't know:
Apparently the motors sit 40mm higher in a 2wd.
the exhaust and the tinware are different.
The thermostat housing is also different as are some of the hoses.

The sale of this motor has gone towards the purchase of my second Syncro 'Sylia' also a ex telcom van.
It's quite an upgrade as this van has windows installed all around including a sun roof and headliner.
It has a rocker rear seat/bed and is engineered and registered as a five seater.
Most importantly though it has a fourth gear, which I never had on 'Synthia. I bought the aftermarket 3rd/4th hub slider from Alan at Stokers but have never managed to get the time to head up to Bribie Island to get Rudi to to the rebuild.

For both syncros I am seriously considering a full subi drivetrain conversion using the subaru gears reversed ring and pinion and flipping a subi rear diff.
I am about to start investigating the geometry to make sure everything will fit easily.
Apparently the subi box exits at the top rather than the bottom like the syncro box so there may be a clearance issue.
Also there is a floor stiffener that may interfere with the box.
At the moment there are no reversed 5.43 ring and pinions offered, so a flipped subi diff is the only option if you wish to run the subi box and motor.
Todd at Subi reversed gears has put a flipped subi diff in his manx.
The coverplate can be rotated 180 deg to put the breather at the top.
So as long as everything can fit I would have to come up with a diff mount, a drive shaft and a gear linkage set up.
Everything else is available from Todd and small cars.
I figure this full drivetrain conversion is a lot of work, but someone has to do it and being an engineer and competent 3d modeler I think it may as well be me.
If it can be made to happen it means that the sycro's can continue to run and have modern updates to their drivetrain for as long as subi keep their flat four configuration.
I would love any advice or info anyone has regarding this conversion?
Cheers
Paul Dumais


3
I second Scotts comments. I am not an engineer, just a lowly mechanic, and having worked in both VW and Subaru dealerships ( rebuilt a few wrx and L series boxes) I would say if you build this conversion you will be braking diffs and boxs every time you use your syncro for what it is built for. The cases and gears are just not strong enough for a two tonne van. Porsche is defiantly the way to go, although too expensive and too hard. My advise is do your ej25 conversion, get Rudie to rebuild your box with a higher fourth gear and have a tailshaft made. Greg E

--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:

From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com>
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro 2.1 wbx into a 2wd T3 and subi drivetrain conversions
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Received: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 5:08 AM

 
re
Brian has noticed some things that I didn't know:
Apparently the motors sit 40mm higher in a 2wd.
the exhaust and the tinware are different.
The thermostat housing is also different as are some of the hoses."
 
yup, all correct.
Can't imagine why you're having so much trouble getting the engine to run in another T3 van.
Is the ecu firing the injectors ?
ECU's ...at least in the US models I work on swap around just fine ..
as long as it's a 2.1 ecu .....'pretty sure' on that.
  Ours can be either Bosch, or Trimph-Adler make..
and there is a suffic D on the vw part number for later ones ..
but I think they'll all run any 2.1 wbxr engine. 
   are you sure the plugs didn't just get fouled with petrol  ?
 
on your major re-do of a syncro drivetrain with subaur-based transmission and front diff ...
I'm a little bit 'why re-invent the wheel' ?
 
Syncro parts may 'like money a bit' ....say Viscoupling issues and virbration issues and what not ..
but they work fine,
and those parts are available 'everywhere' ....at least from our North American view point ..whether we get them here in North America or out of Germany or whatever..
there is a LOT of that stuff changing hands, find their way onto syncro T's etc. 
 And they're basically pretty good I think.
 
so sure ..if you want to ..but sure sounds like a lot of work and expense to me .
plus you are putting 'car' compenents into a much bigger heavier vehicle.
 
the primary reason I can think of for modified subaru transaxles in 2WD rear wheel drive VW based vheicles is to get the gear ratios ...5 of them with fairly high gearing. 
 T3 vans in all froms tend to be a little undergeared for high speed driving ..
and VW does not have a  true Van close ratio 5 speed trans ..
so for those reasons a subaru trans in a rear wheel drive 2WD vehicle like a Manx makes a lot of sense..
but I don't see it for a Syncro too much myself..
but .........go for it !
 It'll be a great project.
 
( I don't think there is an AWD Porche 911 car with non-electronic AWD transmission ..
but if there is .....that configuration, the rear hung 911 engine, like a T3 van's layout, gives a transmisison that turns the right way for use in a T3 ....and such a car has a matching front diff. ..
though I don't think in a pure manual non-electronic layout , though not sure on that. And the parts would be very expensive.  And if you  pay enough ...in europe I think you can get some super expensive Audi-or whatever- based transmissions giving you what you'd like. ) 
Scott
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 4:48 AM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro 2.1 wbx into a 2wd T3 and subi drivetrain conversions

 
Hi All,

Apologies in advance to those who find my actions somewhat sacsyncrolegious.

With the intention of converting my first Telecom Syncro 'Synthia'to a subi drivetrain, i sold her 2.1 wbx motor to my mate and mechanic Brian to replace he's blown motor in his 2wd T3 transporter.

Unfortunately he has not been able to get it going.
He has done every check in the manual, swapped computers, dizzys, coils, relays, checked fuses etc.
There is no spark and no power at the hall sensor.
The manual points to the computer.
However we used his computer at one stage to get my van going originally.
He has tried another computer known to be good to no avail and is going try my computer in the morning.

Has anyone got any ideas as to the possible problem here?
Other than syncro motors should be only be used in syncros!

Brian has noticed some things that i didn't know:
Apparently the motors sit 40mm higher in a 2wd.
the exhaust and the tinware are different.
The thermostat housing is also different as are some of the hoses.

The sale of this motor has gone towards the purchase of my second Syncro 'Sylia' also a ex telcom van.
It's quite an upgrade as this van has windows installed all around including a sun roof and headliner.
It has a rocker rear seat/bed and is engineered and registered as a five seater.
Most importantly though it has a fourth gear, which I never had on 'Synthia. I bought the aftermarket 3rd/4th hub slider from Alan at Stokers but have never managed to get the time to head up to Bribie Island to get Rudi to to the rebuild.

For both syncros I am seriously considering a full subi drivetrain conversion using the subaru gears reversed ring and pinion and flipping a subi rear diff.
I am about to start investigating the geometry to make sure everything will fit easily.
Apparently the subi box exits at the top rather than the bottom like the syncro box so there may be a clearance issue.
Also there is a floor stiffener that may interfere with the box.
At the moment there are no reversed 5.43 ring and pinions offered, so a flipped subi diff is the only option if you wish to run the subi box and motor.
Todd at Subi reversed gears has put a flipped subi diff in his manx.
The coverplate can be rotated 180 deg to put the breather at the top.
So as long as everything can fit I would have to come up with a diff mount, a drive shaft and a gear linkage set up.
Everything else is available from Todd and small cars.
I figure this full drivetrain conversion is a lot of work, but someone has to do it and being an engineer and competent 3d modeler I think it may as well be me.
If it can be made to happen it means that the sycro's can continue to run and have modern updates to their drivetrain for as long as subi keep their flat four configuration.
I would love any advice or info anyone has regarding this conversion?
Cheers
Paul Dumais



 
4
Hi Scott,

Yeah it's definitely a 2.1 ecu.
I'll reckon brian has checked if the injectors are firing, but will ask this morn.

As for the conversion.
Parts aren't that easy to come by here in oz.
Rebuilds of engines are $3000 plus
Gearboxes $1500 plus.
synthia actually had 2 gbox rebuilds each over $1500
sylia has had a $2300 gbox rebuild.
Plenty of people have expressed how well the subi donks go in a syncro, the weak point is the syncro gearbox.

As for the ratios.
The outbacks weigh as much as my syncro.
An example 2.5 subi puts out 123kW and 229 Nm
vs 2.1wbx 82kW and 174 Nm
thats 30% more torque with very flat curve

some ratios
syncro with 5.43:1 diff example subi with 4.44:1 diff (syncro:subi) or with a 4.8 diff (syncro:subi)
gear gbox final gbox final
g 6.03 32.74 n/a
1st 3.78 20.52 3.166 14.07 (1.4) 15.20 (1.35)
2nd 2.06 11.19 1.882 8.36 (1.3) 9.03 (1.2)
3rd 1.226 6.66 1.296 5.76 (1.2) 6.22 (1.1)
4th 0.86 4.67 0.972 4.32 (1.1) 4.67 (1)
5th n/a 0.738 3.28 3.54

So negating the crawler gear, (not an option for some) the extra torque almost balances the difference in gearing.
looks like I'll have to go a turbo subi instead just to make sure.
The subi box can handle 206 kW afterall.

Cheers all
Paul Dumais






5
Hi..
all makes sense.
those prices don't sound that out of line or expensive to me.
There are shops here that will charge $ 6,000 US out the door for a stock waterboxer engine replacement job.
$ 1,500 US for a syncro gear box rebuild is in the ball park. for sure.
They do need it 'too often' ..but that is characteristic of syncro T3 vans.
 
when people ask me say ..
can a T3 van handle the power of an SVX subaru engine ( 3.3 liters, 230 hp ) .
well ..
that depends.
if one uses every bit of that power very often , or course not.
but driven wisely ...no problem.
and I can drive very very fast and be easy on equipment. It's an art and a skill.
some people are very rough on equipment..
and don't even know it either.
 
here is why I think syncro gearboxes don't last that well..
and sure, they could be build much more robustly ..
the issue to me, in my mind is ..
there's a lot of stress going on..,
the VC and driving that whole front end ..and mainly the VC causes a lot of stress.
take the driveshaft out and you feel all that 'binding load' dissappear.
 
as for power and torque .
there is the weight factor of course ..
though that only matters during acceleration and hil climbing.
In steady cruise..the mass of the vehicle is not much of a factor ..
it's only when accelerating it, or slowing it down, or going up and down hills that mass is that large af actor.
  so it's not just the weight.
 
consider the aerodynamcis at say 110kph ..
the Syncro is lilely  40 % more aerodynamic load on the engine than the subaru car is ..
some significant factor like that.
so the 'car' engine is under more load, often, than it is pushing that big box through the air.
 
and ...being more powerful than the waterboxer engine ..
they have to be better.
I find them completely rewarding to fit to syncro's.
I'm doing a 165 hp DOHC 2.5 right now for one.
It'll be fine ..
and eventually that engien will feel like 'it's nice but I could use more still sometimes.'
 
don't know about your driving, but in the Western US there is a lot of 80 mph driving ( about 160kph perhaps ) ..
a freind of mine in California ..a T3 van lover ..
liked to say for Southern California you need a vehicle that will go up hilll at 85 mph on a very hot day, with AC on.
So people here, on the road........like to 'enjoy' a lot of power when they can.
In no case should a T3 van be expected to be safe above about 80 mph .
they just don't have the safety technology or aerodynamics.
 
and the other end of the scale.......slow off road ..
of course..the lower the gears you have, the better the AWD traction you have..
the longer the suspension travel you have...and especially ..the more very low rpm torque you have, the better.   TDI's are very good for that I understand. 
 
anyway ..what fun !
scott
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro 2.1 wbx into a 2wd T3 and subi drivetrain conversions

 

Hi Scott,


Yeah it's definitely a 2.1 ecu.
I'll reckon brian has checked if the injectors are firing, but will ask this morn.

As for the conversion.
Parts aren't that easy to come by here in oz.
Rebuilds of engines are $3000 plus
Gearboxes $1500 plus.
synthia actually had 2 gbox rebuilds each over $1500
sylia has had a $2300 gbox rebuild.
Plenty of people have expressed how well the subi donks go in a syncro, the weak point is the syncro gearbox.

As for the ratios.
The outbacks weigh as much as my syncro.
An example 2.5 subi puts out 123kW and 229 Nm
vs 2.1wbx 82kW and 174 Nm
thats 30% more torque with very flat curve

some ratios
syncro with 5.43:1 diff         example subi with 4.44:1 diff  (syncro:subi)          or with a 4.8 diff (syncro:subi)
gear  gbox    final                          gbox      final
g      6.03    32.74                         n/a
1st   3.78    20.52                        3.166    14.07       (1.4)                                15.20               (1.35)
2nd  2.06    11.19                        1.882    8.36         (1.3)                                 9.03                (1.2)
3rd  1.226   6.66                          1.296    5.76         (1.2)                                 6.22                (1.1)
4th  0.86    4.67                          0.972    4.32          (1.1)                                 4.67                (1)
5th   n/a                                     0.738    3.28                                                3.54
                    

So negating the crawler gear, (not an option for some) the extra torque almost balances the difference in gearing.
looks like I'll have to go a turbo subi instead just to make sure.
The subi box can handle 206 kW afterall.

Cheers all 
Paul Dumais






6
So won't that turn a competent off roader into a fast soft roader? Why do it to a syncro? 2wd yeh fair enough. No low ratio no point. Just buy an outback!

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Paul Dumais <paul.d.dumais@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> Yeah it's definitely a 2.1 ecu.
> I'll reckon brian has checked if the injectors are firing, but will ask this
> morn.
>
> As for the conversion.
> Parts aren't that easy to come by here in oz.
> Rebuilds of engines are $3000 plus
> Gearboxes $1500 plus.
> synthia actually had 2 gbox rebuilds each over $1500
> sylia has had a $2300 gbox rebuild.
> Plenty of people have expressed how well the subi donks go in a syncro, the
> weak point is the syncro gearbox.
>
> As for the ratios.
> The outbacks weigh as much as my syncro.
> An example 2.5 subi puts out 123kW and 229 Nm
> vs 2.1wbx 82kW and 174 Nm
> thats 30% more torque with very flat curve
>
> some ratios
> syncro with 5.43:1 diff example subi with 4.44:1 diff (syncro:subi)
> or with a 4.8 diff (syncro:subi)
> gear gbox final gbox final
> g 6.03 32.74 n/a
> 1st 3.78 20.52 3.166 14.07 (1.4)
> 15.20 (1.35)
> 2nd 2.06 11.19 1.882 8.36 (1.3)
> 9.03 (1.2)
> 3rd 1.226 6.66 1.296 5.76 (1.2)
> 6.22 (1.1)
> 4th 0.86 4.67 0.972 4.32 (1.1)
> 4.67 (1)
> 5th n/a 0.738 3.28
> 3.54
>
>
> So negating the crawler gear, (not an option for some) the extra torque
> almost balances the difference in gearing.
> looks like I'll have to go a turbo subi instead just to make sure.
> The subi box can handle 206 kW afterall.
>
> Cheers all
> Paul Dumais
>
7

Paul,

In respect of the non-starting motor, inadequate earthing is often part of the problem.   The MV engine installation has a flock of earth straps and they all need to be functional.

In respect of the Subaru questions, you are asking the wrong group.   We are a very small group with just a few Subaru conversions.  The US Subaruvanagon site is immense and their collective knowledge is equally immense.   You could well find existing answers in there files.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of paul.dumais@ymail.com
Sent: 07 February 2011 23:48
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro 2.1 wbx into a 2wd T3 and subi drivetrain conversions

 

 

Hi All,

Apologies in advance to those who find my actions somewhat sacsyncrolegious.

With the intention of converting my first Telecom Syncro 'Synthia'to a subi drivetrain, i sold her 2.1 wbx motor to my mate and mechanic Brian to replace he's blown motor in his 2wd T3 transporter.

Unfortunately he has not been able to get it going.
He has done every check in the manual, swapped computers, dizzys, coils, relays, checked fuses etc.
There is no spark and no power at the hall sensor.
The manual points to the computer.
However we used his computer at one stage to get my van going originally.
He has tried another computer known to be good to no avail and is going try my computer in the morning.

Has anyone got any ideas as to the possible problem here?
Other than syncro motors should be only be used in syncros!

Brian has noticed some things that i didn't know:
Apparently the motors sit 40mm higher in a 2wd.
the exhaust and the tinware are different.
The thermostat housing is also different as are some of the hoses.

I would love any advice or info anyone has regarding this conversion?
Cheers
Paul Dumais