syncro durability

1
Hi all,
Not sure if this info is elsewhere, so my apologies if it is. As a new comer to the syncro world, I'm a little worried on reports of short life span for the gear box and engine
Are these parts weak and prone to failures? If so can anything be done to prolong their life?
What are the weak parts in the gear box? With the engine its the dreaded coolant leaks and head studs, but is the efi/ignition etc also likely to fail?
As my bus all seems good, and the cost to repair is very high, I want the bits to last as long as possible
Thanks
Richard
2

Richard,

Syncro_T3_Australia is a technical support group.  Reading the topics on these pages (and some overseas groups) might lead to a view that all is doom and gloom but that is not so.

The Syncro does not have endemic faults any more than any other vehicle.  The problem lies in the fact that the good times get a lot less exposure than the bad times, creating the doom and gloom impression.

Yes, there are things to watch for but really no different to any vehicle of this age.  This is one of the reasons for setting up this group ten years ago.

If you can get to one of the major get-togethers, you will get ample evidence of the bright side of the coin.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 09 October 2014 02:29
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

Hi all,
Not sure if this info is elsewhere, so my apologies if it is. As a new comer to the syncro world, I'm a little worried on reports of short life span for the gear box and engine
Are these parts weak and prone to failures? If so can anything be done to prolong their life?
What are the weak parts in the gear box? With the engine its the dreaded coolant leaks and head studs, but is the efi/ignition etc also likely to fail?
As my bus all seems good, and the cost to repair is very high, I want the bits to last as long as possible
Thanks
Richard

3
Richard,
I agree with Les.
As someone who once ran a small fleet of T3s, I have found that the 2.1 litre engines, well maintained, are good for much more than 400,000 Ks, vastly more than the old two litre air cooled engines which in my experience fell over at just over 200,000 Ks.
We have always changed the oil every 7000 Ks, filter every second change and used the VW specified fluid in the cooling system.

As for gear boxes, I have only ever had one syncro and I've had it's GBox worked on twice in 260,000 Ks.
But I cannot remember why we did the first rebuild.
It was probably because we thought it might be a good idea and I was expensing it against the business.
The second was because on serious hill climbs and descents it was slipping out of both G & R.
But much of what was done was to improve the breed, with such things as adding the front diff lock and the decoupler.

Not particularly relevant, because Syncro transmissions do a lot more work in serious off-road driving, but we were getting more than 400.000 out of our 2WD gear boxes.

Hope this helps,
Peter








On 08 Oct 2014 08:29:23 -0700, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

>Hi all,
>Not sure if this info is elsewhere, so my apologies if it is. As a new comer to the syncro world, I'm a little worried on reports of short life span for the gear box and engine
>Are these parts weak and prone to failures? If so can anything be done to prolong their life?
>What are the weak parts in the gear box? With the engine its the dreaded coolant leaks and head studs, but is the efi/ignition etc also likely to fail?
>As my bus all seems good, and the cost to repair is very high, I want the bits to last as long as possible
>Thanks
>Richard
>
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4
Thanks for the comments, Les I understand what you mean on the technical nature of the posts which is great, and am sure as I get to know my bus better I will be able to keep it going. I have had a string of air cooled vws so have a good respect for what they are capable of, and as mentioned the 2wd gb's seem very reliable, and they are an evolution of the bay window GB, which were also very reliable. I was wondering what is it that shortens the life in a syncro? I assume they are essentially the same as a 2wd gb with different ratios and the output shaft that extends out the front?
So the big difference is the viscous coupling and load that creates?

I guess the real question is how to extend their life, is it simply having a decoupler and maybe a better oil (full synthetic)

My bus had the GB rebuilt before I bought it, (and has the extra oil deflector plates) and I have done about 20k km in it so far, so definitely not doom and gloom. I did a lot of towing with my T2 bus, and the synchro needs to take over these duties also!
Cheers
Richard
5

Richard,

It is extremely difficult to make meaningful comparisons with engines that are 25 years old.  The same applies to gearboxes.  Only the very few members who are original owners can come even close.

This applies particularly to the concept that the Syncro engine has a shorter life than the same engine in the 2WD.  With so many owners in this group running engines that are over 300,000 and even over 400,000, there does not appear to be any grounds for thinking that the Syncro engine is short-lived.  I never got those figures when I was running air cooled engines.

The VC does not impose a load on the engine.  It simply allows some speed difference between the front and rear axles before becoming a solid drive.  A decoupler will do nothing to extend engine life.  All it does is remove the load from the gearbox when making tight turns on a high grip surface – as in full lock parking manoeuvres – when a VC gets to the aggressive stage.  It does NOT give improved fuel consumption; I rand a test over 20,000+ and the consumption was very marginally better in 4WD.

If you alter your mindset to 25 year old engines and gearboxes, it might look substantially different. It isn’t all a doom and gloom scenario, it’s just a 25 year old vehicle scenario.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 09 October 2014 23:18
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

 

Thanks for the comments, Les I understand what you mean on the technical nature of the posts which is great, and am sure as I get to know my bus better I will be able to keep it going. I have had a string of air cooled vws so have a good respect for what they are capable of, and as mentioned the 2wd gb's seem very reliable, and they are an evolution of the bay window GB, which were also very reliable. I was wondering what is it that shortens the life in a syncro? I assume they are essentially the same as a 2wd gb with different ratios and the output shaft that extends out the front?
So the big difference is the viscous coupling and load that creates?

I guess the real question is how to extend their life, is it simply having a decoupler and maybe a better oil (full synthetic)

My bus had the GB rebuilt before I bought it, (and has the extra oil deflector plates) and I have done about 20k km in it so far, so definitely not doom and gloom. I did a lot of towing with my T2 bus, and the synchro needs to take over these duties also!
Cheers
Richard

6

Haha, I like that, 25 years old, I think of the Syncro is new fandangled stuff as I'm used to 40 year old VW's :). Water cooling, EFI, AWD is all new to me, oh and 70kw motor compared to the 50kw I'm used to in the T2 is a big step up in power! (that being said I think the torque curve in the T2 made it more drivable)

I did a trip Melb-Bris and dropped the tail shaft out in Newcastle, I did not experience any change in economy either, but noticed a big different in the drive "feel". From everything I have researched my VC appears to work as intended (not weak or aggressive), yet I can definitely feel when the tail shaft is in or out (I do pay particular attention to rotating tyres and checking wear rates etc)

Until I can get a decoupler I drop the tail shaft out when not needed for now. I really wish you could also get dis-engaging hubs for a Syncro!


I have a lot of experience with T2 kombi's, 3-400k km on a well maintained engine/gb is easy to achieve, the main issue with T2's is all the cheap poor quality replacement parts now pedalled around the world, so buyer be wear! The last major re-build I did used only NOS or OEM parts, most of that you can no longer source. That engine/GB has done ~150k km, and majority of that was either loaded (often over the GVM) or towing trailers, so it's had a tough life. It's still going strong (compression has not changed since installed).


Anyway, the Syncro is a new chapter for me (coming up to 2 years now), and the T2 is now on club rego, so no longer in daily use. To date I have certainly tested the Syncro's limits off road and as a work horse and have no issues with it's ability


I definitely look forward a group meet when they happen if I can get along.


Richard



---In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, <leslieharris@...> wrote :

Richard,

It is extremely difficult to make meaningful comparisons with engines that are 25 years old.  The same applies to gearboxes.  Only the very few members who are original owners can come even close.

This applies particularly to the concept that the Syncro engine has a shorter life than the same engine in the 2WD.  With so many owners in this group running engines that are over 300,000 and even over 400,000, there does not appear to be any grounds for thinking that the Syncro engine is short-lived.  I never got those figures when I was running air cooled engines.

The VC does not impose a load on the engine.  It simply allows some speed difference between the front and rear axles before becoming a solid drive.  A decoupler will do nothing to extend engine life.  All it does is remove the load from the gearbox when making tight turns on a high grip surface – as in full lock parking manoeuvres – when a VC gets to the aggressive stage.  It does NOT give improved fuel consumption; I rand a test over 20,000+ and the consumption was very marginally better in 4WD.

If you alter your mindset to 25 year old engines and gearboxes, it might look substantially different. It isn’t all a doom and gloom scenario, it’s just a 25 year old vehicle scenario.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 09 October 2014 23:18
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

 

Thanks for the comments, Les I understand what you mean on the technical nature of the posts which is great, and am sure as I get to know my bus better I will be able to keep it going. I have had a string of air cooled vws so have a good respect for what they are capable of, and as mentioned the 2wd gb's seem very reliable, and they are an evolution of the bay window GB, which were also very reliable. I was wondering what is it that shortens the life in a syncro? I assume they are essentially the same as a 2wd gb with different ratios and the output shaft that extends out the front?
So the big difference is the viscous coupling and load that creates?

I guess the real question is how to extend their life, is it simply having a decoupler and maybe a better oil (full synthetic)

My bus had the GB rebuilt before I bought it, (and has the extra oil deflector plates) and I have done about 20k km in it so far, so definitely not doom and gloom. I did a lot of towing with my T2 bus, and the synchro needs to take over these duties also!
Cheers
Richard

7
Further to my earlier comments on durability.

A few weeks ago Val and I joined a Tag-A-Long tour with Great divide Tours in the Stockton Sandhills, just north of Newcastle.
It was a Sunday and the sand had been thrashed to pulp.

In 4WD with both diff locks on I kept up with the Toyotas and Nissans, but the little 2.1, the gear box and the VC worked really hard.
It was a fun day, I learnt a lot about the Syncro, but I felt afterwards that there was a lot of wear and tear.
So wont be in a hurry to do it again.

My point is, the harder we work them the faster they wear.

Peter





On 09 Oct 2014 05:18:25 -0700, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

>Thanks for the comments, Les I understand what you mean on the technical nature of the posts which is great, and am sure as I get to know my bus better I will be able to keep it going. I have had a string of air cooled vws so have a good respect for what they are capable of, and as mentioned the 2wd gb's seem very reliable, and they are an evolution of the bay window GB, which were also very reliable. I was wondering what is it that shortens the life in a syncro? I assume they are essentially the same as a 2wd gb with different ratios and the output shaft that extends out the front?
>So the big difference is the viscous coupling and load that creates?
>
>I guess the real question is how to extend their life, is it simply having a decoupler and maybe a better oil (full synthetic)
>
>My bus had the GB rebuilt before I bought it, (and has the extra oil deflector plates) and I have done about 20k km in it so far, so definitely not doom and gloom. I did a lot of towing with my T2 bus, and the synchro needs to take over these duties also!
>Cheers
>Richard
>
>------------------------------------
>Posted by: cathrich1@yahoo.com.au
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8

I am only new to taking the Syncro into difficult territory, but must say in my experiences to date I have not been overly impressed with ability in the sand, but have been impressed in ability on steep muddy hills. In the sand friends I was with and Amarok, Landcruiser, I struggled to keep up, in the muddy stuff easily followed them.

I have 215/75R15's and rear diff lock, std VC. I assume I have a stock ride height, but I was told the springs are not factory, so could be a fraction higher than stock.

I can't help thinking a solid shaft would have helped a lot in the sand over the VC, I think in sand once you spin the rear, even a fraction the back starts to dig in before the front gets a decent amount of torque transfer. I also found climbing hills in the sand the rear acted like a grader pulling a lot of sand up and around the motor. I'm guessing it gat as far as the belts then sprayed sand all over the engine bay.

Maybe a front diff lock would have helped also?


I found the 2.1 fine, but looses torque quickly if you let the revs drop, a flatter torque curve probably would help also.


Oh, one questions for the group, is there any recommended limits on wading depths? I've been through some deep crossing, but not sure if there are potential problems going too deep? I see the diff/GB's have breather pipes, but not sure where they go, and is the clutch sealed off?

9
No personal experience on sand but GoWesty have some comments about the use of a VC vs solid shaft replacement (which they happen to sell).



On 10/10/2014, at 5:45 PM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I am only new to taking the Syncro into difficult territory, but must say in my experiences to date I have not been overly impressed with ability in the sand, but have been impressed in ability on steep muddy hills. In the sand friends I was with and Amarok, Landcruiser, I struggled to keep up, in the muddy stuff easily followed them.

I have 215/75R15's and rear diff lock, std VC. I assume I have a stock ride height, but I was told the springs are not factory, so could be a fraction higher than stock.

I can't help thinking a solid shaft would have helped a lot in the sand over the VC, I think in sand once you spin the rear, even a fraction the back starts to dig in before the front gets a decent amount of torque transfer. I also found climbing hills in the sand the rear acted like a grader pulling a lot of sand up and around the motor. I'm guessing it gat as far as the belts then sprayed sand all over the engine bay.

Maybe a front diff lock would have helped also?


I found the 2.1 fine, but looses torque quickly if you let the revs drop, a flatter torque curve probably would help also.


Oh, one questions for the group, is there any recommended limits on wading depths? I've been through some deep crossing, but not sure if there are potential problems going too deep? I see the diff/GB's have breather pipes, but not sure where they go, and is the clutch sealed off?



10
Never had a problem in deep sand myself. You need to get used to that in WA. Drop the tyres to 18 psi or 12 if it's really soft. Diff lock doesn't matter much in the sand I find. More for when you're losing traction on one side. In fact the syncro seems to deal with the sand and most tracks better than most - according to my Toyota driving mates. Mine is lifted with 215/75/15. Prefer the Bridgestones  myself.
I'm at 320000 kms on an original engine / gearbox. Decoupler would be the first thing I would do on a syncro,
together with checking the condition of the VC.
How you drive is the key to longevity, together with luck and regular maintenance.

Mark
11
Your experience in sand is interesting Mark.
I have always locked up my rear end on sand since an experience on Fraser Island some years ago.
A lot of tracks on Fraser are single vehicle, so one has to pull off while the other passes.
On that occasion I did not have a locker on and was running fine on the VC,
but after pulling off and stopping, I only had wheel spin.
The rear locker would not come on because of the wheel spin as she has to be travelling straight to engage.
It was great because the people following jumped out and gave a quick push and in moments later we were was back on track.
Since then, I've always had at least the rear locker on, on sand.

You are right about tyre pressures, now that I have tyre pressure indicators on each tyre, and a really effective battery powered pump, it has become an easy choice to lower pressures on sand and rough surfaces.
Peter


--Original Message Text---
From: m.mullet@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Date: 10 Oct 2014 06:26:15 -0700



Never had a problem in deep sand myself. You need to get used to that in WA. Drop the tyres to 18 psi or 12 if it's really soft. Diff lock doesn't matter much in the sand I find. More for when you're losing traction on one side. In fact the syncro seems to deal with the sand and most tracks better than most - according to my Toyota driving mates. Mine is lifted with 215/75/15. Prefer the Bridgestones myself.
I'm at 320000 kms on an original engine / gearbox. Decoupler would be the first thing I would do on a syncro,
together with checking the condition of the VC.
How you drive is the key to longevity, together with luck and regular maintenance.

Mark




12
Hi Peter,
My understanding is that usual/typical/readier difflock engagement requires the van to be moving and steering on a curve. Or else be stationary, jack up one wheel and rotate it until it locks in. Moving and steering straight ahead is best utilised for difflock disengagement.
Cheers.
Ken


Sent from my Samsung GALAXY S4


-------- Original message --------
From: "'Peter Schweinsberg' peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]"
Date:11/10/2014 10:15 AM (GMT+10:00)
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

 

Your experience in sand is interesting Mark.
I have always locked up my rear end on sand since an experience on Fraser Island some years ago.
A lot of tracks on Fraser are single vehicle, so one has to pull off while the other passes.
On that occasion I did not have a locker on and was running fine on the VC,
but after pulling off and stopping, I only had wheel spin.
The rear locker would not come on because of the wheel spin as she has to be travelling straight to engage.
It was great because the people following jumped out and gave a quick push and in moments later we were was back on track.
Since then, I've always had at least the rear locker on, on sand.

You are right about tyre pressures, now that I have tyre pressure indicators on each tyre, and a really effective battery powered pump, it has become an easy choice to lower pressures on sand and rough surfaces.
Peter


--Original Message Text---
From: m.mullet@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Date: 10 Oct 2014 06:26:15 -0700



Never had a problem in deep sand myself. You need to get used to that in WA. Drop the tyres to 18 psi or 12 if it's really soft. Diff lock doesn't matter much in the sand I find. More for when you're losing traction on one side. In fact the syncro seems to deal with the sand and most tracks better than most - according to my Toyota driving mates. Mine is lifted with 215/75/15. Prefer the Bridgestones myself.
I'm at 320000 kms on an original engine / gearbox. Decoupler would be the first thing I would do on a syncro,
together with checking the condition of the VC.
How you drive is the key to longevity, together with luck and regular maintenance.

Mark




13

For the lock dogs to engage, they need to align.  They will do this readily when there is even a slight difference in rear wheel speeds.  If the vehicle is running straight ahead, it needs only a very slight steering input either way to achieve the necessary wheel speed difference.  If already on a curved path, a slight change to the steering angle will achieve the required wheel speed difference.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 11 October 2014 21:36
To: Syncro _T3_Australia forum
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

Hi Peter,

My understanding is that usual/typical/readier difflock engagement requires the van to be moving and steering on a curve. Or else be stationary, jack up one wheel and rotate it until it locks in. Moving and steering straight ahead is best utilised for difflock disengagement.

Cheers.

Ken

14
Les is right,
but my rule of thumb is that I have to straighten up before it happens.
Peter


--Original Message Text---
From: 'Les Harris' leslieharris@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 10:09:25 +1100

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}



For the lock dogs to engage, they need to align. They will do this readily when there is even a slight difference in rear wheel speeds. If the vehicle is running straight ahead, it needs only a very slight steering input either way to achieve the necessary wheel speed difference. If already on a curved path, a slight change to the steering angle will achieve the required wheel speed difference.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 11 October 2014 21:36
To: Syncro _T3_Australia forum
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability


Hi Peter,


My understanding is that usual/typical/readier difflock engagement requires the van to be moving and steering on a curve. Or else be stationary, jack up one wheel and rotate it until it locks in. Moving and steering straight ahead is best utilised for difflock disengagement.


Cheers.


Ken









15
I have never had issues engaging/disengaging. If you are stuck and spinning one wheel, you would need to ensure it only creeps around while trying to engauge. If you spin fast I could see it not engaging, infact you could to damage if it suddenly grabs.
I generally do no use the lock until I have issues proceeding

In sand I was running 15 psi, and had a couple of tracks I could not follow a land cruiser (big wheels, V8, auto), so not bad.
16

I might as well run this up the flagpole for comment; according to the Muller brothers the problem with the gearbox is caused by the operating temperature that the trans axle operates at in that it causes the case to expand and this affects the operating clearances of the crown and pinion gears, I think that the later model syncros had a stronger gear box case to alleviate the problem, porches had the same problem, I have been advised that the fitting of a oil cooler will help, I change the oils every 100000 Ks in the boxes and use the oil that Muller’s recommend Castrol have a oil called Vartex I think which is a red colour,i fitted a decoupler to mine as a preventative action but then I read in a article from Rudy on Bribie Island who is the expert on the boxes that it is better to use 4 wheel drive when towing to spread the load evenly over the drive system

Bob

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, 9 October 2014 11:18 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

 

 

Thanks for the comments, Les I understand what you mean on the technical nature of the posts which is great, and am sure as I get to know my bus better I will be able to keep it going. I have had a string of air cooled vws so have a good respect for what they are capable of, and as mentioned the 2wd gb's seem very reliable, and they are an evolution of the bay window GB, which were also very reliable. I was wondering what is it that shortens the life in a syncro? I assume they are essentially the same as a 2wd gb with different ratios and the output shaft that extends out the front?
So the big difference is the viscous coupling and load that creates?

I guess the real question is how to extend their life, is it simply having a decoupler and maybe a better oil (full synthetic)

My bus had the GB rebuilt before I bought it, (and has the extra oil deflector plates) and I have done about 20k km in it so far, so definitely not doom and gloom. I did a lot of towing with my T2 bus, and the synchro needs to take over these duties also!
Cheers
Richard

17
Bob heat is the number one enemy of a 094 syncro box. There are a couple of areas of inherent weakness which can be addressed on rebuilding. The SA oiling plates are an attempt to cool and lubricate the more vulnerable areas. In time I will add a cooler to mine. A simple arrangement that will draw from the drain and enter via the filler. There are a lot of people now doing some very elaborate cooling and lubing mods. Hermans blog was probably the first and most extensive. I would change the fluid more often if I were you, cheap insurance. Greg
 
From: "'Robert Dale' rcdale@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 13 October 2014, 11:36
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability

 
I might as well run this up the flagpole for comment; according to the Muller brothers the problem with the gearbox is caused by the operating temperature that the trans axle operates at in that it causes the case to expand and this affects the operating clearances of the crown and pinion gears, I think that the later model syncros had a stronger gear box case to alleviate the problem, porches had the same problem, I have been advised that the fitting of a oil cooler will help, I change the oils every 100000 Ks in the boxes and use the oil that Muller’s recommend Castrol have a oil called Vartex I think which is a red colour,i fitted a decoupler to mine as a preventative action but then I read in a article from Rudy on Bribie Island who is the expert on the boxes that it is better to use 4 wheel drive when towing to spread the load evenly over the drive system
Bob
 


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, 9 October 2014 11:18 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] syncro durability
 
 
Thanks for the comments, Les I understand what you mean on the technical nature of the posts which is great, and am sure as I get to know my bus better I will be able to keep it going. I have had a string of air cooled vws so have a good respect for what they are capable of, and as mentioned the 2wd gb's seem very reliable, and they are an evolution of the bay window GB, which were also very reliable. I was wondering what is it that shortens the life in a syncro? I assume they are essentially the same as a 2wd gb with different ratios and the output shaft that extends out the front?
So the big difference is the viscous coupling and load that creates?

I guess the real question is how to extend their life, is it simply having a decoupler and maybe a better oil (full synthetic)

My bus had the GB rebuilt before I bought it, (and has the extra oil deflector plates) and I have done about 20k km in it so far, so definitely not doom and gloom. I did a lot of towing with my T2 bus, and the synchro needs to take over these duties also!
Cheers
Richard