Syncro / VC / noise and vibes

41

My Doka, Syncro, Tristar still has the rubber donut.

Ralph


<<<ORIGINAL MESSAGE>>>

No idea Peter, 

That said I have not seen one, can anyone actually confirm that the SINKA and DOKA did not have the donut? 

42
Interesting thread from Samba which discusses vibration and the drive shaft.
Interestingly the article talks very little about the donut but more attention given to transaxle and diff mounts and proper alignment. The very last entry is interesting.
But read the whole thread.
Thanks
Peter Bellamy




On Thu, 31 May 2018, 2:29 pm Ralph Roden rrmoss@xtra.co.nz [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

My Doka, Syncro, Tristar still has the rubber donut.

Ralph


<<<ORIGINAL MESSAGE>>>

No idea Peter,

That said I have not seen one, can anyone actually confirm that the SINKA and DOKA did not have the donut?

43

Hi Scott

I used E-Go when I sent them previously to Roger, pickup from my door to Berkeley Vale Depot is $40 to keep round numbers plus maybe $10-20 for insurance if you want it, can't tell from their website unless I book it.

The package size is 10cm x 10cm x 140cm and weighs 10.5 KG, in case you want to check with E-go or other couriers.

and a shaft is $490

Cheers, Uwe

On 31/05/2018 2:17 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Hi Uwe,

How much for a courier to NSW Central Coast?

Have you tried Ego Couriers?

I could pick it up from the Central Coast depot in Berkeley Vale.

Please advise.

Thanks,

Scott

On 29/05/2018 4:52 PM, 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Peter, Mark, Scott ,...

I'm in Melbourne, the shafts are $490 plus courier (I sent 2 to Roger for about $70 with insurance Melb-Goulburn).

I have 3 ready and get can more made within a week or so. They are simple solid shafts with just serviceable uni's at either end, they are common 153X made by many including Dana Spicer.

Been meaning to put up a website up for them and other bits, need to pull my finger out.

Cheers Uwe


On 29/05/2018 1:37 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Uwe
Hi there
I'd be interested mate.
How much?
Where are you?
Thanks
Peter Bellamy

On Tue, 29 May 2018, 1:33 pm 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have had some shafts made up just like the gowesty ones, solid shafts with grease nipples and common replaceable uni joints, if anyone is interested I still have a few. I've had mine in place for a year and done quite a few thousand K's with no issues or any vibrations.

Roger Bailey also has one in use. (Hi Roger)

I had the same issues with the original, changed to the agro uni joints, had it balanced, still had vibrations. Had the solid shafts made and haven't looked back.

Cheers, Uwe


On 28/05/2018 4:28 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2018, 3:47 pm Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Also,
I read somewhere that local refurbishers/balancers of the likes of tailshafts/propshafts do not have test equipment that maximum rotate any where near as far as our propshafts do. Limited to say 1000rpm. If valid, then your vibration coming in in excess of 100kph may not show up. I stand corrected if incorrect.
Cheers.
Ken




Sent from Samsung tablet



-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 28/05/2018 3:17 PM (GMT+10:00)
To: syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Syncro / VC / noise and vibes


Hi Gaetan,
Sure, if you so choose. Might get lucky.

There's been previous discussion here about replacing joints with a particular model designed more for agricultural use. Maybe not quite up to scratch but lacking an alternative. Not been there so can't help further, someone else may have more specific info.
Cheers.
Ken

From: lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 1:35 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Syncro / VC / noise and vibes

I'm awaiting to hear from FDE - hopefully they will be able to help and that will solve my problem!

When you say having the uni's checked, do you mean the U-joints either end of the tail shaft?

And thanks to all who posted in this topic - all great advice and much appreciated!






--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting

44
Thanks Uwe.

Send me a private email to:

spbconsulting@bigpond.com

With your bank details.

Thanks,

Scott

On 31/05/2018 5:02 PM, 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Hi Scott

I used E-Go when I sent them previously to Roger, pickup from my door to Berkeley Vale Depot is $40 to keep round numbers plus maybe $10-20 for insurance if you want it, can't tell from their website unless I book it.

The package size is 10cm x 10cm x 140cm and weighs 10.5 KG, in case you want to check with E-go or other couriers.

and a shaft is $490

Cheers, Uwe

On 31/05/2018 2:17 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Hi Uwe,

How much for a courier to NSW Central Coast?

Have you tried Ego Couriers?

I could pick it up from the Central Coast depot in Berkeley Vale.

Please advise.

Thanks,

Scott

On 29/05/2018 4:52 PM, 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Peter, Mark, Scott ,...

I'm in Melbourne, the shafts are $490 plus courier (I sent 2 to Roger for about $70 with insurance Melb-Goulburn).

I have 3 ready and get can more made within a week or so. They are simple solid shafts with just serviceable uni's at either end, they are common 153X made by many including Dana Spicer.

Been meaning to put up a website up for them and other bits, need to pull my finger out.

Cheers Uwe


On 29/05/2018 1:37 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Uwe
Hi there
I'd be interested mate.
How much?
Where are you?
Thanks
Peter Bellamy

On Tue, 29 May 2018, 1:33 pm 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have had some shafts made up just like the gowesty ones, solid shafts with grease nipples and common replaceable uni joints, if anyone is interested I still have a few. I've had mine in place for a year and done quite a few thousand K's with no issues or any vibrations.

Roger Bailey also has one in use. (Hi Roger)

I had the same issues with the original, changed to the agro uni joints, had it balanced, still had vibrations. Had the solid shafts made and haven't looked back.

Cheers, Uwe


On 28/05/2018 4:28 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2018, 3:47 pm Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Also,
I read somewhere that local refurbishers/balancers of the likes of tailshafts/propshafts do not have test equipment that maximum rotate any where near as far as our propshafts do. Limited to say 1000rpm. If valid, then your vibration coming in in excess of 100kph may not show up. I stand corrected if incorrect.
Cheers.
Ken




Sent from Samsung tablet



-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 28/05/2018 3:17 PM (GMT+10:00)
To: syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Syncro / VC / noise and vibes


Hi Gaetan,
Sure, if you so choose. Might get lucky.

There's been previous discussion here about replacing joints with a particular model designed more for agricultural use. Maybe not quite up to scratch but lacking an alternative. Not been there so can't help further, someone else may have more specific info.
Cheers.
Ken

From: lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 1:35 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Syncro / VC / noise and vibes

I'm awaiting to hear from FDE - hopefully they will be able to help and that will solve my problem!

When you say having the uni's checked, do you mean the U-joints either end of the tail shaft?

And thanks to all who posted in this topic - all great advice and much appreciated!






--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting


--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
45
Watch the you tube link in this thread and the one that follows it.
Thanks
Peter Bellamy



On Thu, 31 May 2018, 12:24 pm Nils Birkmann nilsbirkmann@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

No idea Peter,


That said I have not seen one, can anyone actually confirm that the SINKA and DOKA did not have the donut?

Or is this an rumour, myth or bedtime story gowesty tell young syncro owners to sell straight shafts?


On Thu, 31 May 2018 at 12:08 PM, Nils Birkmann nilsbirkmann@yahoo.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]

Well I guess seeing as this is a hot topic that just keeps pooping up in my inbox I will add my experience and things I have learnt trying to sort my vibration in the last year.


But lets start with an opinion first, removing the donut will 100% add extra load to your gearbox bearings and the comment that holdens and such don't have them is rot too. It is true that vehicles with live rear axles don't have them, as they deflect during the up and down movement of the suspension. Most irs vehicles where the gearbox and diff do not move relative to each other have some version of this (called a guibo by the way) and those with 3 piece tailshafts, the center bearing is mounted in rubber. So in the world of higher Syncro gearbox prices do you really want to find out over a few hundred bucks whether it needs to be there?
The reason a solid shaft fixs your vibrations is because you have removed 4 of your wear items. (2 bushes inside, the spindle inside and the rubber donut) I would concider this a bandaid fix because it's cheaper.

So back to what I have learnt, the PTO cheap $30 uni's are 30mm x 70mm and have 12 needle bearings inside them. The specifed uni's at $270-340 are 30mm x 68.9mm and have 24 needle bearings inside. I have 2 of the cheap ones that show play after only 1000km.

The original specification for balancing the shaft was 6000rpm, which in todays terms doesnt mean anything except that it was done to a higher standard than what is seen as the norm. (Most balancing machines only go to 3000) BUT! having said that technology has come a long was since then and it is no longer a requirement to spin that fast as increased accuracy of sensors can simulate what will happen at the higher RPM. So what you are looking for when you see your driveshaft shop is the ISO standard to which they balance.
The standard for automotive shafts is G16, I have had mine done 3 times to this to still have a slight humming under the floor at over 85km. It seems that this is not enough and am currently having mine balanced to G6.3, I will get back to you with whether that is the winner.

With that in mind, if the original shaft was balanced to a higher standard, to think that you could get a good balance with a worn center bush, substandard uni or deteriorated donut is kidding yourself. To have the end cut of the prop shaft, to have an engineering shop remake the 2 bushes, grind the internal shaft round again, ream and reassemble cost me around $320.
The donut can be bought as a meyle product for $40-50 or as a BMW part for $240-650.

On to gearbox mounts, the mounts are trash by this age of the vehicle, they are super soft and aren't holding much (also throwing your tailshaft alignment way out). If you have vibrations that come and go at different speeds start here. The factory spec is 4 degrees included angle front and rear. Like mine you will find they are more like 2.5 and 5 due to the output/input ends sagging due to worn mounts. Even with the tailshaft out new mounts make a very noticible diffence to smoothness, shifting and clutch chatter. They can be found for between $40-60 ea and there are 10 of them, if the plastic spacers are damaged replace them while you are at it . lastly don't forget your engine mounts play on this too, check those.

How specific you want to be with your alignment between the front and rear boxes is up to you. Realistically uni's should get about 1 degree of misalignment without issue, so a quick string line should do the job, concentrate your time on the angles instead.

I currently have the whole shebang laser straight within a few mm and the included angles within 0.1 of each other, A slow building hum is still presesnt. Fingers crossed my new balance sorts that out.



On Tue, 29 May 2018 at 9:03 PM, brent cartwright manxdune@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]

Having used a balancer for work, you do not need to rotate the job at actual operating speed to balance it. You don't spin up a 300 kg amature to 3000 rpm, it get very dangerous. You spin it slower and your tolerances get smaller.

On Tuesday, 29 May 2018, 8:34:27 pm AEST, 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Peter, I'll add your name and yes they are ready to roll, just add your 8 bolts.

I'm interstate at the moment (putting more kms on the shaft), later this week we can work it out, might even have to order some more.

Uwe



On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Uwe
Sounds good mate.
I assume they come with flanges at each end to suit the VW coupling ?
Balanced, ready to roll?
put my name on one please.
Peter

On 29 May 2018 at 16:52, 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Peter, Mark, Scott ,...

I'm in Melbourne, the shafts are $490 plus courier (I sent 2 to Roger for about $70 with insurance Melb-Goulburn).

I have 3 ready and get can more made within a week or so. They are simple solid shafts with just serviceable uni's at either end, they are common 153X made by many including Dana Spicer.

Been meaning to put up a website up for them and other bits, need to pull my finger out.

Cheers Uwe


On 29/05/2018 1:37 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
Uwe
Hi there
I'd be interested mate.
How much?
Where are you?
Thanks
Peter Bellamy

On Tue, 29 May 2018, 1:33 pm 911Jack 911jack@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> wrote:

I have had some shafts made up just like the gowesty ones, solid shafts with grease nipples and common replaceable uni joints, if anyone is interested I still have a few. I've had mine in place for a year and done quite a few thousand K's with no issues or any vibrations...

Roger Bailey also has one in use. (Hi Roger)

I had the same issues with the original, changed to the agro uni joints, had it balanced, still had vibrations. Had the solid shafts made and haven't looked back.

Cheers, Uwe


On 28/05/2018 4:28 PM, Peter Bellamy wanderingstar911@gmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2018, 3:47 pm Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia], <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com> wrote:

Also,
I read somewhere that local refurbishers/balancers of the likes of tailshafts/propshafts do not have test equipment that maximum rotate any where near as far as our propshafts do. Limited to say 1000rpm. If valid, then your vibration coming in in excess of 100kph may not show up. I stand corrected if incorrect.
Cheers.
Ken




Sent from Samsung tablet



-------- Original message --------
From: "Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogrou ps.com>
Date: 28/05/2018 3:17 PM (GMT+10:00)
To: syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroup s.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Syncro / VC / noise and vibes


Hi Gaetan,
Sure, if you so choose. Might get lucky.

There's been previous discussion here about replacing joints with a particular model designed more for agricultural use. Maybe not quite up to scratch but lacking an alternative. Not been there so can't help further, someone else may have more specific info.
Cheers.
Ken

From: lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 1:35 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Syncro / VC / noise and vibes

I'm awaiting to hear from FDE - hopefully they will be able to help and that will solve my problem!

When you say having the uni's checked, do you mean the U-joints either end of the tail shaft?

And thanks to all who posted in this topic - all great advice and much appreciated!








--
Peter Bellamy

Mobile 0498 382 602



46

Thanks for the great write up Nils,

Just on the flange angles, so this is adjusted with shims under the rubber mounts?

I only have my bus to reference to, but it still has the original mounts and no shims. So are shims a factory way to align things, or an after market fix instead of replacing worn mounts?


I also found when I had my gear box out, when re-installing, even with the mounts only done up enough to hold the gear box up (and engine), there was virtually no movement left to right, front to back. So even though I took measurements before removing, if it did not install in the same location, there was no movement there to align things anyway.


Richard

47
Hi Richard!

It's funny that I keep getting thanked for my right up, I though it sounded a bit like I was having a rant (guess it did take me 4 days on and off to write)

To answer your question, Best I can tell you should not have to be shimming things to get the angles within 1 degree of each other unless the front and rear boxes are not anywhere near co-linear to each other.

 The adjustment to which is - 

            The rear gearbox -     the 2 ears attached to the front mounts are slotted to move left and right.
                                           -    There is not adjustment at the engine end.

            The front gearbox - the rear banana shaped carrier also has slotted holes .
                                         - and at the front, the square shaped bar that the front mount bolts to has a bolt on each end that can                                              be moved left and right between the rails of the front subframe.

Back to shimming, as I mentioned you really should not have to shim..

 UNLESS!

- your gearbox mounts are worn.
- your engine mounts are worn.
- or you have aftermarket parts that are not true to the original design.
- and lastly if you syncro has impact damage underneath as I found out.

So, speaking of the last point that is why I shimmed mine as I found that the engine carrier bar had been hit very hard on the passenger side.

The original measurements I had were 2.5 degrees included angle at the front and almost 5 at the rear.

 By installing new mounts I ended up with 3.2 at the front and 4 at the rear. Which is actually within tolerance, no shimming needed.  But remember I was still chasing a vibration.

So after hours of inspecting and measuring I found a small kink in the flange that the engine carrier bar is attached to and a heavy mark in the bar. Which made sense as the exhaust had a hole in it from an altercation with a rock on that side too.

As a result I ended up with 9mm of shims (3x3mm) under the passenger side mount and 3mm under the driveside to net me angles of 3.5 and 3.6 (remember as the 2 angles are opposite each other, buy dropping the engine side you decrease the rear gearbox angle and increase the front diff angle at the same time) 

This was supper close as far s angles go but I still had a vibration.

Finally we come back full circle to the tailshaft (propshaft if you like)
As mentioned in my last small book, it was decided that due to the higher speed that VW balanced their shafts there was a good possibility that the specification that most shafts are balanced to was too low (G16) and that a specialized balance was required. After having a chat with the (very interested in my van) fellows at Hardy Spicer in Beresfield they agreed that they could balance my shaft at 6000rpm and recommended to increase the tolerance to a G6.3 spec. G6.3 spec is what is usually used for electric motors, gas turbines, turbo chargers and such.

I picked up the shaft this afternoon with some print outs of the before and after, this is where the cool nerd stuff comes in.
The first printout is of the before condition. As you can see and as Brent mentioned it is not actually spun at 6000rpm, but due to the magic maths compters we come up with the equivilant. The "Planes" mentioned at the bottom is if you look at the shaft from the end while running and pertains to how much weight deflection is found up/down, left/right at 6000rpm at 43mm from center. How many G's that is I have no idea, but as you can see it was almost 7 grams one way and 4.5 grams the other, which to G16 spec is well within tolerance.

It was also mentioned to me (not mentioned on the print out) that at the higher tolerance the straightness of the shaft also becomes tighter and as a result may shaft was straightened a little to be within 0.005'' runout (don't ask me why it is on imperial)


Inline image

The second printout is post G6.3 spec balance and you can see those numbers are down dramatically, well as dramatic as a few grams can be. Down to only 0.425g and 0.213g

Inline image

As you can imagine I was eager to rush home and install and no doubt the question is "well did it work?"

Indeed it did! smooth as butter! I finally have a 4WD almost 3 years after purchase my syncro can again stand proud.


As an end note, these tolerances could not be achieved with a worn center bearing. If your center bearing/bush is in question this has to be your first fix, well after the obvious anyways.

And to come back to the really world I chatted to the boys a hardy spicer about building a brand new shaft including a rubber donut. They replied with an expected cost of around $1200

Good night.


On Friday, June 1, 2018, 3:35:11 PM GMT+10, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Thanks for the great write up Nils,

Just on the flange angles, so this is adjusted with shims under the rubber mounts?

I only have my bus to reference to, but it still has the original mounts and no shims. So are shims a factory way to align things, or an after market fix instead of replacing worn mounts?


I also found when I had my gear box out, when re-installing, even with the mounts only done up enough to hold the gear box up (and engine), there was virtually no movement left to right, front to back. So even though I took measurements before removing, if it did not install in the same location, there was no movement there to align things anyway.


Richard

48
Having found one of the U-joints well worn on my tailshaft, I had both replaced (with the proper spec VW ones) and the assembly rebalanced by Final Drive Engineering locally, and I can report that, $625 later, it's now running smoothly all the way up to 110 km/h.

Thanks to all who contributed in helping me determine where the problem was. 

Gaetan
49
Excellent result.

They are expensive buggers to fix but awesome when working well.

Cheers,

Scott


On 14/06/2018 7:44 PM, lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Having found one of the U-joints well worn on my tailshaft, I had both replaced (with the proper spec VW ones) and the assembly rebalanced by Final Drive Engineering locally, and I can report that, $625 later, it's now running smoothly all the way up to 110 km/h.


Thanks to all who contributed in helping me determine where the problem was.

Gaetan

--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting