Thermostat Temperature

1

What are the views on the lower temp thermostat. I see the stock one is 87 degrees and Van cafe sell an 80 degree one. Most other parts sites seem to only sell the stock thermostat. I am just curious as to the reasons why you would deviate from the original design. I know it would operate the engine at a lower temp and perhaps that is good for our conditions.

Peter from Port

2
Hi Peter,
Some light bedtime reading  might help nod you off ....
Cheers.
Ken
 
3
Pete, don’t do it! The engine will only work efficiently at its correct operating temp. People fit these with the miss guided notion that their engine won’t overheat or it may disguise a cooling system issue.  Wrong on both counts. The best thermostat is the wahler branded one. When you hold it in your hand you will know why. Greg

Sent from Greg's iPhone

On 30 Apr 2018, at 3:41 pm, peter@coeconsult.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

What are the views on the lower temp thermostat. I see the stock one is 87 degrees and Van cafe sell an 80 degree one. Most other parts sites seem to only sell the stock thermostat. I am just curious as to the reasons why you would deviate from the original design. I know it would operate the engine at a lower temp and perhaps that is good for our conditions.

Peter from Port

4
It is only 7 degrees lower. I have never heard of the 80 degree thermostats causing any running problems at all and I have run them for 27 years. I have had a faulty thermostat go low (probably to around 60 degrees) and it caused running problems. Then I replaced it with a 80 degree Wahler and everything went well.  These are earlier model thermostats, probably on the pre cat engines. The 87 degree was for pollution. It just gives you a buffer on overheating and less stress on hoses etc.



When you had an Oettinger conversion an 80 degree thermostat came with it. I trust Oettinger.

I wouldn't waste my time reading Samba as 90% of it is garbage.
5
I’ve had a lower temp one for years since being very hot one New Years eve out the back of Cobar.
It was stinking hot.
Mark, then my fleet mechanic, put it on to give the fans more notice.

The higher temperature one would be better for normal running.
Modern engines run very much hotter than old ones, 
because higher temperature aids combustion,
and I’m suggesting that our motors are modern.
They certainly are when compared with some of the engines in my collection

Many modern engines run above boiling point, aided by well pressurised cooling systems.

  





On 30 Apr 2018, at 3:41 PM, peter@coeconsult.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



What are the views on the lower temp thermostat. I see the stock one is 87 degrees and Van cafe sell an 80 degree one. Most other parts sites seem to only sell the stock thermostat. I am just curious as to the reasons why you would deviate from the original design. I know it would operate the engine at a lower temp and perhaps that is good for our conditions.

Peter from Port




6

mmmmmmmmmmmmm  .... some food for thought, right or wrong ...

Goto: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462341


Should nod you off tonite ok. HA!

Cheers.

Ken



From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of peter@coeconsult.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 3:41 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Thermostat Temperature
 
 

What are the views on the lower temp thermostat. I see the stock one is 87 degrees and Van cafe sell an 80 degree one. Most other parts sites seem to only sell the stock thermostat. I am just curious as to the reasons why you would deviate from the original design. I know it would operate the engine at a lower temp and perhaps that is good for our conditions.

Peter from Port

7
Hi Phil, Peter might refer to to the thermo switch in the radiator as i experienced problems with my fan not coming on. I replaced the switch with a new one but that did not make a difference.
Somewhere i read that these thermo switches were changed to come in at 84C instead of 92C.
In my case, i relpaced the radiator. See how it goes when going up the mountain next.
Hart



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Date:01/05/2018 08:07 (GMT+10:00)
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Thermostat Temperature

 

It is only 7 degrees lower. I have never heard of the 80 degree thermostats causing any running problems at all and I have run them for 27 years. I have had a faulty thermostat go low (probably to around 60 degrees) and it caused running problems. Then I replaced it with a 80 degree Wahler and everything went well.  These are earlier model thermostats, probably on the pre cat engines. The 87 degree was for pollution. It just gives you a buffer on overheating and less stress on hoses etc.



When you had an Oettinger conversion an 80 degree thermostat came with it. I trust Oettinger.

I wouldn't waste my time reading Samba as 90% of it is garbage.

8
Yes Hart,
The thermostat remained the same original.
It was just to bring on the fan at a lower temperature in extreme conditions,
conditions which, living here in western Sydney we are experiencing more and more often.
I seldom am aware of the fan switching on even then, but it is particularly useful in 
bumper to bumper traffic. 
Peter



On 1 May 2018, at 8:38 AM, Hartmut Kiehn hartis@live.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Hi Phil, Peter might refer to to the thermo switch in the radiator as i experienced problems with my fan not coming on. I replaced the switch with a new one but that did not make a difference.
Somewhere i read that these thermo switches were changed to come in at 84C instead of 92C.
In my case, i relpaced the radiator. See how it goes when going up the mountain next.
Hart



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> 
Date:01/05/2018 08:07 (GMT+10:00) 
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com 
Cc: 
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Thermostat Temperature 

It is only 7 degrees lower. I have never heard of the 80 degree thermostats causing any running problems at all and I have run them for 27 years. I have had a faulty thermostat go low (probably to around 60 degrees) and it caused running problems. Then I replaced it with a 80 degree Wahler and everything went well.  These are earlier model thermostats, probably on the pre cat engines. The 87 degree was for pollution. It just gives you a buffer on overheating and less stress on hoses etc.



When you had an Oettinger conversion an 80 degree thermostat came with it. I trust Oettinger.

I wouldn't waste my time reading Samba as 90% of it is garbage.




9
Everyone is thinking that the only issue with maintaining an engine temp is to stop the engine overheating, not so. The fuel injection, the tolerances of the engine mechanicals and other components are designed to run at peak efficiency in a certain band of temperature. You won't have running issues at 80 just as you won't have running issues at 60 or 40. What you will have is an engine that is running cold. How does this effect efficiency? Well fuel needs to be delivered to the combustion chamber vaporised. It leaves the injector/carburator atomised. When the droplets hit the inlet valve/port (or inlet manifold on a carb) the heat vaporises the fuel. Likewise when an engine expands with heat the gaps or tolerances in the components reduce. Too hot they touch, too  cold the gap is too big. This is especially crucial at the piston crown. The thermostat and the thermoswitch are a matched pair. The thermostat keeps the engine ABOVE the lowest OPERATING temp the engineers decided (based on a lot of testing with very expensive equipment and know how). The cooling fan and its thermoswitch keep the engine from overheating. 
Back to my original point, people often fit these to mask a overheating problem. Usually it is a partially blocked radiator and the 80 thermostat will improve the symptoms but never entirely solve them. Greg

On Tuesday, 1 May 2018, 10:32:06 am AEST, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Yes Hart,
The thermostat remained the same original.
It was just to bring on the fan at a lower temperature in extreme conditions,
conditions which, living here in western Sydney we are experiencing more and more often.
I seldom am aware of the fan switching on even then, but it is particularly useful in 
bumper to bumper traffic. 
Peter



On 1 May 2018, at 8:38 AM, Hartmut Kiehn hartis@live.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Hi Phil, Peter might refer to to the thermo switch in the radiator as i experienced problems with my fan not coming on. I replaced the switch with a new one but that did not make a difference.
Somewhere i read that these thermo switches were changed to come in at 84C instead of 92C.
In my case, i relpaced the radiator. See how it goes when going up the mountain next.
Hart



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: "plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> 
Date:01/05/2018 08:07 (GMT+10:00) 
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com 
Cc: 
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Thermostat Temperature 

It is only 7 degrees lower. I have never heard of the 80 degree thermostats causing any running problems at all and I have run them for 27 years. I have had a faulty thermostat go low (probably to around 60 degrees) and it caused running problems. Then I replaced it with a 80 degree Wahler and everything went well.  These are earlier model thermostats, probably on the pre cat engines. The 87 degree was for pollution. It just gives you a buffer on overheating and less stress on hoses etc.



When you had an Oettinger conversion an 80 degree thermostat came with it. I trust Oettinger.

I wouldn't waste my time reading Samba as 90% of it is garbage.




10
Yes the lower degree thermostats were fitted to mask a design problem. When these were new a lot of people kept blowing hoses. They could only be bought genuine at a cost of $2000. It was found that the radiator caps were a poor design and could not release the pressure fast enough as the valves were too small. Hence the replacement blue caps.
11
Now with the blue caps available there is no reason to suffer even lower power output, lower fuel economy and increased wear. Greg

On Tuesday, 1 May 2018, 5:44:00 pm AEST, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Yes the lower degree thermostats were fitted to mask a design problem. When these were new a lot of people kept blowing hoses. They could only be bought genuine at a cost of $2000. It was found that the radiator caps were a poor design and could not release the pressure fast enough as the valves were too small. Hence the replacement blue caps.

12
I really cant see anything different like that with 5 degrees in water temperature. The electronics wouldn't be able to detect any difference.
13
The VW engineers did. Thats why they didn't use the part they already had on the shelf. Greg

On Tuesday, 1 May 2018, 6:28:55 pm AEST, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

I really cant see anything different like that with 5 degrees in water temperature. The electronics wouldn't be able to detect any difference.

14

I have run both, have put the stock one back in. I have put an additional temp gauge on the outlet of the radiator as a good guide to the health of the system. I know exactly when the fan will kick in, and also get to see when temps are climbing early on.

I have noticed no difference in cooling performance with the lower temp thermostat other than the original gauge in the dash sits a little lower under normal conditions. At best it will delay the fan coming on 30-60 sec when under heavy load on a hot day due to the system running at a lower temp..

I seen no benefits of the lower thermostat on a hot day under load. (EG 35C day in deep sand in 1st and 2nd gears)


I also agree with Greg, the engine runs at a lower temp under normal circumstances with the lower thermostat. The temp 2 sensor has a different resistance (output to the ECU) with the lower temp thermostat. I can only assume this affects the ECU output as it thinks the engine is not yet up to temp. The changes in running are subtle, and most likely compensated for if your O2 sensor is working.


My 2 bob's worth.

15

Interesting point on the header tank caps. I retained the original black cap when I replaced the cooling system (including header tank) as I had read of issues with some of the blue caps not relieving pressure.

My bus lived 1/2 it's life in Alice springs (from new), so would have seen plenty of hot days. The only parts in the cooling system replaced before I got it was the heater hoses and heads on the engine.


On a side note about the cooling system, I picked up a while ago a second hand radiator fan and shroud, but noticed the fan is 1/2 the size of the one in my bus!!

Were bigger fans fitted to Syncro's? The radiators look the same.


Richard

16
Yes Richard,

The fan blades are the same size but the fan motor is larger.

Im sure both would work though if they are both 2 stage fans.

Wiring is slightly different too.

Skot

On 2/05/2018 12:55 AM, cathrich1@yahoo.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Interesting point on the header tank caps. I retained the original black cap when I replaced the cooling system (including header tank) as I had read of issues with some of the blue caps not relieving pressure.

My bus lived 1/2 it's life in Alice springs (from new), so would have seen plenty of hot days. The only parts in the cooling system replaced before I got it was the heater hoses and heads on the engine.


On a side note about the cooling system, I picked up a while ago a second hand radiator fan and shroud, but noticed the fan is 1/2 the size of the one in my bus!!

Were bigger fans fitted to Syncro's? The radiators look the same.


Richard


--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
17
The fan/motor/wiring size is not a syncro thing but an option.
18
Maybe we all got the larger fan motor as a standard tick in Australia?

The shroud is slightly different too - to accommodate the big motor.


On 2/05/2018 10:06 AM, plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

The fan/motor/wiring size is not a syncro thing but an option.


--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
19
It's the same with the radiator on the later models.
20
and the air filter elements.