> Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> Further to the tyre availability situation:
>
> The B F Goodrich All Terrain is still available in 15" sizes, which
> makes alternative wheels a consideration.
>
> I had a set of 15" made by Ajax (Melbourne) to cover the probability -
> now the actuality - of the 14" no longer being produced. These wheels
> are based on the standard 14" wheel. The 14" rim is removed from the
> centre and a deep well 15" rim is installed in its place.
>
> This will take the 215-75-15 tyre, rated at 710 kg and 180 kph, which is
> 4% larger in circumference than the same tyre in 14". There are no
> clearance problems with this size.
>
> I think that I paid about $80 each for them, and the customer has to
> supply the donor 14" wheels.
>
> Les
>
----- Original Message -----From: plander@optusnet.com.auSent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:28 AMSubject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Tyre Availability and WheelsThe problem is getting the donor wheels!
.![]()
> They don't have to be Syncro wheels. Any T3 wheel is a suitable donor.Australian syncro wheels (14x6") are made from 1mm thicker steel than the 2WD (14x5.5") wheels.
> I forgot to mention that the correct offset for this size wheel is
> P27.5. This keeps the steering geometry as originally designed.
>
> Les
>
>
The correct offset for 6" is ET30
Photo shows 2WD, 14x6 syncro, 15x6 modified syncro, 15x6 T4.
Standard Michelin 14", BFG AT 215/75x15.
Hi Les and all,
There is a difference between Syncro wheels and 2wd (apart from the different offset). The centres of Syncro wheels are made of thicker material. I remember this from when I first got my Syncro, and still had my 2wd T3. The difference was quite noticeable, but I can’t remember the measurements. VW presumably did this for a reason, probably because the load rating of the standard wheel was marginal for the extra weight of the Syncro and the stresses of off-road work. This may lead to some concern about the load rating of altered wheels if 2wd centers are used, and consequent insurance concerns, especially if an assessor realizes the wheels are a different diameter and thus have been altered. Maybe some-one (perhaps one of our European readers) can check if VW’s load rating specs are indeed different for the 2wd and Syncro wheels.
Having said that, I remember discussing this issue on the US Syncro site some years ago, and determining that US Syncros came with 5.5 inch rim width (therefore presumably standard 2wd wheels, as 5.5 inch was standard for 2wd wheels) compared to the Aussie 6 inch rim width on Syncro’s. They seem to have survived without noticeable wheel failures. There was also some question that the heavier rims might only be on the ‘commercial’ vans, not the ‘passenger’ vans, for heavier load capacity, and the Americans didn’t get Vanagons as commercial derivatives.
By the way, if you are looking for wheels to alter, and are happy to use 2wd ones, I think they are the same right from the early 70’s bay window kombi’s
BRIAN REED
FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
185 Wingrove St
Fairfield, Vic. 3078
03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2007
11:36 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Tyre
Availability and Wheels
They don't have to be Syncro wheels. Any T3 wheel is a suitable donor. I forgot to mention that the correct offset for this size wheel is P27.5. This keeps the steering geometry as originally designed.
Les
----- Original Message -----
From: plander@optusnet. com.au
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Tyre Availability and Wheels
The problem is getting the donor wheels!
.
> They don't have to be Syncro wheels. Any T3 wheel is a suitable donor.Australian syncro wheels (14x6") are made from 1mm thicker steel than the 2WD
> I forgot to mention that the correct offset for this size wheel is
> P27.5. This keeps the steering geometry as originally designed.
>
> Les
>
>
(14x5.5") wheels.
In the UK they had 5.5 on the 1.9 engine vans and the 6" with the 2.1 or Caravelle.
I think the very early Australian syncros had 5.5s.
The correct offset for 6" is ET30
Photo shows 2WD, 14x6 syncro, 15x6 modified syncro, 15x6 T4.
Standard Michelin 14", BFG AT 215/75x15.
----- Original Message -----From: Brian ReedSent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:38 PMSubject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Tyre Availability and Wheels
Hi Les and all,
There is a difference between Syncro wheels and 2wd (apart from the different offset). The centres of Syncro wheels are made of thicker material. I remember this from when I first got my Syncro, and still had my 2wd T3. The difference was quite noticeable, but I cant remember the measurements. VW presumably did this for a reason, probably because the load rating of the standard wheel was marginal for the extra weight of the Syncro and the stresses of off-road work. This may lead to some concern about the load rating of altered wheels if 2wd centers are used, and consequent insurance concerns, especially if an assessor realizes the wheels are a different diameter and thus have been altered. Maybe some-one (perhaps one of our European readers) can check if VWs load rating specs are indeed different for the 2wd and Syncro wheels.
Having said that, I remember discussing this issue on the US Syncro site some years ago, and determining that US Syncros came with 5.5 inch rim width (therefore presumably standard 2wd wheels, as 5.5 inch was standard for 2wd wheels) compared to the Aussie 6 inch rim width on Syncros. They seem to have survived without noticeable wheel failures. There was also some question that the heavier rims might only be on the commercial vans, not the passenger vans, for heavier load capacity, and the Americans didnt get Vanagons as commercial derivatives.
By the way, if you are looking for wheels to alter, and are happy to use 2wd ones, I think they are the same right from the early 70s bay window kombis
BRIAN REED
FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
185 Wingrove St
Fairfield, Vic. 3078
03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
.![]()
----- Original Message -----From: plander@optusnet.com.auSent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:44 PMSubject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Tyre Availability and Wheels
> They don't have to be Syncro wheels. Any T3 wheel is a suitable donor.
> I forgot to mention that the correct offset for this size wheel is
> P27.5. This keeps the steering geometry as originally designed.
>
> Les
>
>
Australian syncro wheels (14x6") are made from 1mm thicker steel than the 2WD
(14x5.5") wheels.
In the UK they had 5.5 on the 1.9 engine vans and the 6" with the 2.1 or Caravelle.
I think the very early Australian syncros had 5.5s.
The correct offset for 6" is ET30
Photo shows 2WD, 14x6 syncro, 15x6 modified syncro, 15x6 T4.
Standard Michelin 14", BFG AT 215/75x15.
On 11/25/07, Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:Brian,Since you mentioned this yesterday at the DOTVW meeting, I checked my wheel sets as soon as I arrived home and compared the original 14" Syncro knaves with the 2WD knaves that were donors for the Ajax 15" wheels that I had made. The difference in thickness is 0.5 mm, with the Syncro being the thicker.The original Syncro wheels were unique in Australia, being 6" wide, as you said, while the 2WD wheels were 5.5". In terms of dynamic loading, the rear wheels of the 2WD T3, when running at max rated load at high speed on poor roads, would be very similar to the Syncro off road. There might have been heavy duty wheels available for the Syncro that I haven't heard about. Some of our members, here or overseas, might have more information on that.Phill? Mike? Ben?And, to elaborate on what I should have put in the original post, it makes a lot of sense to maintain the correct offset when changing wheels. The offset is determined by having the kingpin axis and the centre point of the tyre contact patch coincide on the road surface. The primary reason is to minimize the dynamic loads on the front suspension and steering mechanism. The 16" has +25 mm, the 14" has +30 mm. I did a layout for the 15" and it came out at the half-way point, +27.5 mm, and had mine made to this offset.LesLes,I'm not sure which question you want answered. US Spec Vanagons use the same 5.5" steel wheels in both the 2wd and Syncro models with an offset of ET30. Syncros can tolerate offsets as high as ET45 w/o any noticeable difference in my opinion. Mark Drillock and Dan Fleming both have use bored out Audi alloys for their forays into Baja California w/o any issues. Factory alloy wheels for Vanagons are again the same offset but slightly wider at 6". As for the regular (thinner) wheels, US spec Vanagons have never had any serious issues with steel rims that I have ever heard of. Of course, there will be some exceptions to the rule but overall, those same wheels have been soldiering on in US T3's since 1971.The downside of using 14" centers is the lack of room for larger brakes such as those found in South African T3's. I've used Mercedes S-class steel rims from the 126 models. They are ET25 and 15". Unfortunately I have found the rims themselves quite fragile compared to the stock T3 wheels. I do feel they are suitable donors for centers. They are quite rare in the US as most MB cars came here with alloy wheel wheels after the late 70's.It's sad but the 14" steel rims are routinely tossed out and or given way here. Too bad someone couldn't come here and gather them all up and prep them as center donors for export to OZ.BenT
Probably not just for me, would someone please explain to us in laymans
terms, from where to where on the wheel rim and/or centre that is the ET
offset. So, as my original (but now spare) set of 14" syncro rims are
marked ET30, I'd like to be able to physically measure it and other
rims.
Ben T says up to ET45 on 15" rims still won't rub. He may well be right.
I do know my Merc 6Jx15H2 ET49 wheels do rub, for some occasions on
uneven offroad circumstances when on a lock. Also the centres in these
Merc rims are only about 3.5mm thick, whereas my 14" syncro rims are
around 4.5mm. These 15" Merc rims have been on since around 1992.
However, I still cannot see any physical damage or distortion.
Also, as many of us are running our camper syncros at maximum and beyond
Gross Weight of 2.5 ton, I suspect the body is sitting lower relative to
the wheels. Hence an increased possibility of rubbing.
Cheers.
Ken
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "BenT Syncro" <syncro@...>
wrote:
>my
> On 11/25/07, Les Harris leslieharris@... wrote:
> >
> > Brian,
> >
> > Since you mentioned this yesterday at the DOTVW meeting, I checked
> > wheel sets as soon as I arrived home and compared the original 14"wheels
> > Syncro knaves with the 2WD knaves that were donors for the Ajax 15"
> > that I had made. The difference in thickness is 0.5 mm, with theSyncro
> > being the thicker.as you
> >
> > The original Syncro wheels were unique in Australia, being 6" wide,
> > said, while the 2WD wheels were 5.5". In terms of dynamic loading,the
> > rear wheels of the 2WD T3, when running at max rated load at highspeed on
> > poor roads, would be very similar to the Syncro off road. Theremight
> > have been heavy duty wheels available for the Syncro that I haven'theard
> > about. Some of our members, here or overseas, might have moreinformation
> > on that.makes
> >
> > Phill? Mike? Ben?
> >
> > And, to elaborate on what I should have put in the original post, it
> > a lot of sense to maintain the correct offset when changing wheels.The
> > offset is determined by having the kingpin axis and the centre pointof the
> > tyre contact patch coincide on the road surface. The primary reasonis to
> > minimize the dynamic loads on the front suspension and steeringmechanism.
> > The 16" has +25 mm, the 14" has +30 mm. I did a layout for the 15"and it
> > came out at the half-way point, +27.5 mm, and had mine made to thisoffset.
> >the same
> > Les
> >
>
>
> Les,
>
> I'm not sure which question you want answered. US Spec Vanagons use
> 5.5" steel wheels in both the 2wd and Syncro models with an offset ofET30.
> Syncros can tolerate offsets as high as ET45 w/o any noticeabledifference
> in my opinion. Mark Drillock and Dan Fleming both have use bored outAudi
> alloys for their forays into Baja California w/o any issues. Factoryalloy
> wheels for Vanagons are again the same offset but slightly wider at6". As
> for the regular (thinner) wheels, US spec Vanagons have never had anythere
> serious issues with steel rims that I have ever heard of. Of course,
> will be some exceptions to the rule but overall, those same wheelshave been
> soldiering on in US T3's since 1971.brakes such
>
> The downside of using 14" centers is the lack of room for larger
> as those found in South African T3's. I've used Mercedes S-class steelrims
> from the 126 models. They are ET25 and 15". Unfortunately I have foundthe
> rims themselves quite fragile compared to the stock T3 wheels. I dofeel
> they are suitable donors for centers. They are quite rare in the US asmost
> MB cars came here with alloy wheel wheels after the late 70's.way
>
> It's sad but the 14" steel rims are routinely tossed out and or given
> here. Too bad someone couldn't come here and gather them all up andprep
> them as center donors for export to OZ.
>
>
> BenT
>
----- Original Message -----From: KenSent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:40 PMSubject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wheels and ET
Gday ALL,
Probably not just for me, would someone please explain to us in laymans
terms, from where to where on the wheel rim and/or centre that is the ET
offset. So, as my original (but now spare) set of 14" syncro rims are
marked ET30, I'd like to be able to physically measure it and other
rims.
Ben T says up to ET45 on 15" rims still won't rub. He may well be right.
I do know my Merc 6Jx15H2 ET49 wheels do rub, for some occasions on
uneven offroad circumstances when on a lock. Also the centres in these
Merc rims are only about 3.5mm thick, whereas my 14" syncro rims are
around 4.5mm. These 15" Merc rims have been on since around 1992.
However, I still cannot see any physical damage or distortion.
Also, as many of us are running our camper syncros at maximum and beyond
Gross Weight of 2.5 ton, I suspect the body is sitting lower relative to
the wheels. Hence an increased possibility of rubbing.
Cheers.
Ken.![]()
On 11/26/07, Ken <unclekenz@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gday ALL,
Probably not just for me, would someone please explain to us in laymans
terms, from where to where on the wheel rim and/or centre that is the ET
offset. So, as my original (but now spare) set of 14" syncro rims are
marked ET30, I'd like to be able to physically measure it and other
rims.
Ben T says up to ET45 on 15" rims still won't rub. He may well be right.
I do know my Merc 6Jx15H2 ET49 wheels do rub, for some occasions on
uneven offroad circumstances when on a lock. Also the centres in these
Merc rims are only about 3.5mm thick, whereas my 14" syncro rims are
around 4.5mm. These 15" Merc rims have been on since around 1992.
However, I still cannot see any physical damage or distortion.
Also, as many of us are running our camper syncros at maximum and beyond
Gross Weight of 2.5 ton, I suspect the body is sitting lower relative to
the wheels. Hence an increased possibility of rubbing.
Cheers.
KenKen,To elaborate on Les' response to your question, the bigger the "ET" number, the more the inside rim of the wheel goes inward. It is also important to consider the width of the wheel. For example, if you have an ET30 wheel which is the same offset as stock but go to a width of say... 11 inches. The inside rim will still make contact with the suspension components. For our purposes, I feel we should limit wheel width to 7 inches at ET30. Anything wider requires adjusting the ET accordingly. As another example, I have a 2wd Vanagon (T3) with 8" wide wheels. I had to correct the offset to ET20 to get it to fit though it now ticks out too far outward for full fender coverage. Here's a nice diagram to visualize how it works. Keep mind out Syncro use "positive" offset.Just another note: The 6 inch (152.4mm) wide Syncro wheel at ET30 will have 106.2 mm of it's total width sticking INWARDS and only to 46.2mm to the outside of the fenders. If my math is correct:Centerline of the wheel is 152.4mm ÷ 2 = 76.2 mmInside rim is 76.2mm + 30mm (ET30) = 106.2mmOutside rim is 76.2 - 30mm (ET30 again) = 46.2mmI hope that didn't make it more confusing.BenT
There’s a page on the Brickyard site in the UK that explains it as well
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/VehicleSpecific/T3/info/mods/alloys/altwhls.htm
Cheers
Gary
On 11/26/07, Ken <unclekenz@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gday ALL,
Probably not just for me, would someone please explain to us in laymans
terms, from where to where on the wheel rim and/or centre that is the ET
offset. So, as my original (but now spare) set of 14" syncro rims are
marked ET30, I'd like to be able to physically measure it and other
rims.
Ben T says up to ET45 on 15" rims still won't rub. He may well be right.
I do know my Merc 6Jx15H2 ET49 wheels do rub, for some occasions on
uneven offroad circumstances when on a lock. Also the centres in these
Merc rims are only about 3.5mm thick, whereas my 14" syncro rims are
around 4.5mm. These 15" Merc rims have been on since around 1992.
However, I still cannot see any physical damage or distortion.
Also, as many of us are running our camper syncros at maximum and beyond
Gross Weight of 2.5 ton, I suspect the body is sitting lower relative to
the wheels. Hence an increased possibility of rubbing.
Cheers.
Ken
Ken,
To elaborate on Les' response to your question, the bigger the "ET" number, the more the inside rim of the wheel goes inward. It is also important to consider the width of the wheel. For example, if you have an ET30 wheel which is the same offset as stock but go to a width of say... 11 inches. The inside rim will still make contact with the suspension components. For our purposes, I feel we should limit wheel width to 7 inches at ET30. Anything wider requires adjusting the ET accordingly. As another example, I have a 2wd Vanagon (T3) with 8" wide wheels. I had to correct the offset to ET20 to get it to fit though it now ticks out too far outward for full fender coverage. Here's a nice diagram to visualize how it works. Keep mind out Syncro use "positive" offset.
http://kmhafer.datsun510.com/wheel_offset.jpeg
Just another note: The 6 inch (152.4mm) wide Syncro wheel at ET30 will have 106.2 mm of it's total width sticking INWARDS and only to 46.2mm to the outside of the fenders. If my math is correct:
Centerline of the wheel is 152.4mm ÷ 2 = 76.2 mm
Inside rim is 76.2mm + 30mm (ET30) = 106.2mm
Outside rim is 76.2 - 30mm (ET30 again) = 46.2mm
I hope that didn't make it more confusing.
BenT
On 11/26/07, Gary Cookson <gary@twentytwentyone.net> wrote:There's a page on the Brickyard site in the UK that explains it as well
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/VehicleSpecific/T3/info/mods/alloys/altwhls.htm
Cheers
GaryGary,I have one question about that site. They write in the paragraph entitled "SPACERS" that T3's came from the factory with ET39 steel wheels. Perhaps it's just me but of the hundreds of T3's that I've personally seen and inspected, I have yet to see one with ET39 steel wheels.I'll send a shout out to site owner/sponsor Simon Baxter at the Brick-Yard to verify if that is a typo or some other information that I was not aware of.Cheers,BenT
Hi Ben, yes I read that too and thought it was odd. My Syncro came from the UK and has ET30 stamped on the standard rims so I’d imagine it is a typo. Maybe he means the alloys had 39 and the steels 30?
I tell you, this wheel business is a pain!
Gary
On 11/26/07, Gary Cookson <gary@twentytwentyone.net> wrote:
There's a page on the Brickyard site in the UK that explains it as well
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/VehicleSpecific/T3/info/mods/alloys/altwhls.htm
Cheers
Gary
Gary,
I have one question about that site. They write in the paragraph entitled "SPACERS" that T3's came from the factory with ET39 steel wheels. Perhaps it's just me but of the hundreds of T3's that I've personally seen and inspected, I have yet to see one with ET39 steel wheels.
I'll send a shout out to site owner/sponsor Simon Baxter at the Brick-Yard to verify if that is a typo or some other information that I was not aware of.
Cheers,
BenT
On 11/26/07, Gary Cookson <gary@twentytwentyone.net> wrote:Hi Ben, yes I read that too and thought it was odd. My Syncro came from the UK and has ET30 stamped on the standard rims so I'd imagine it is a typo. Maybe he means the alloys had 39 and the steels 30?
I tell you, this wheel business is a pain!
GaryGary,It's not funny now but I amassed over 160 spares during my T3 wheel research. I had a wake-up call a few months ago when I started to assess what happened all my storage space. It that mountain of spare wheels, about two dozen are factory T3 alloy wheels. All have ET30 offsets IIRC.Sometimes I wish I was in the wheel business. Perhaps I should since this whole business has given me a royal pain in the posterior. It's much easier to buy than to sell.=(Ben
Ben, where are you?
I’ll buy some of them!
On 11/26/07, Gary Cookson <gary@twentytwentyone.net> wrote:
Hi Ben, yes I read that too and thought it was odd. My Syncro came from the UK and has ET30 stamped on the standard rims so I'd imagine it is a typo. Maybe he means the alloys had 39 and the steels 30?
I tell you, this wheel business is a pain!
Gary
Gary,
It's not funny now but I amassed over 160 spares during my T3 wheel research. I had a wake-up call a few months ago when I started to assess what happened all my storage space. It that mountain of spare wheels, about two dozen are factory T3 alloy wheels. All have ET30 offsets IIRC.
Sometimes I wish I was in the wheel business. Perhaps I should since this whole business has given me a royal pain in the posterior. It's much easier to buy than to sell.=(
Ben
----- Original Message -----From: Gary CooksonSent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:57 AMSubject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wheels and ET
Ben, where are you?
Ill buy some of them!
.![]()
On 11/26/07, Les Harris <leslieharris@optushome.com.au> wrote:Ben is a VERY long way from us! A long swim, in fact.LesGary,Les knows but is not entirely correct. You don't have to get wet. You can flap and glide your way here. It's a measly, 11949 km to San Francisco as the aluminum crow flies. The dead giveaway is the way I spell words like "aluminium".If Les was closer, I could just hand him a dozen 14" steel rims for free to use as donors for his wheel project.Cheers,BenT
On 11/26/07, BenT Syncro <syncro@gmail.com> wrote:Gary,I have one question about that site. They write in the paragraph entitled "SPACERS" that T3's came from the factory with ET39 steel wheels. Perhaps it's just me but of the hundreds of T3's that I've personally seen and inspected, I have yet to see one with ET39 steel wheels.I'll send a shout out to site owner/sponsor Simon Baxter at the Brick-Yard to verify if that is a typo or some other information that I was not aware of.Cheers,BenT