what decoupler to get?

1

Hi,

I see there are a few manufactures of decouplers. What are people running over here any why?  I'm looking at a few upgrades and just want to know which options are the tried and proven ones.  Would have to import the wrong one.

Cheers,


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2
Hi Michael

We are running the German decoupler(Bernd Jaeger) and are very happy
with it.

I believe Rudi on Bribie Island may be manufacturing his own version
so it may be worth getting in touch with him!!

Cheers
Andy




--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Michael Roberts
<type500@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I see there are a few manufactures of decouplers. What are people
running over here any why? I'm looking at a few upgrades and just
want to know which options are the tried and proven ones. Would have
to import the wrong one.
> Cheers,
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
>
> http://www.flickr.com/gift/
>
3
Hiya,

You don't need to pay BJ prices anymore these days. We have other
manufacturers with excellent quality where a complete set including
tubing and lever for the front panel was running about 450 EUR! The
guy is manuacturing every day but has a list of waiting people. If you
are not in a big hurry, email me privately and I'll get you in contact
with him. Even if you are in a hurry... sometimes he has a spare to
send out quickly :) I'll attach a picture of the set installed in my
own syncro.

Ciao,

Martin
4
I have the German decoupler fitted for a couple of years now,
beautifully made and it works perfectly, I only engage 4wd on gravel/
dirt and wet roads. I like when the bitumen turns to gravel reaching
down and pulling the knob out and hey presto 4WD!

Steve.
5
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <ossyncro@...> wrote:
>Hey Guys,
Thanks for the lifter info!!! I think Ken has one of Rudi"s
Decouplers fitted ... He visited me after Rudi fitted it and was
impressed... Not sure where Rudi gets them? Rudi just got back from
Austria with his orig 16in Hi Top RHD Syncro, so he has good
conections !!!!!!!!
Thanks
Pete
> Hi Michael
>
> We are running the German decoupler(Bernd Jaeger) and are very happy
> with it.
>
> I believe Rudi on Bribie Island may be manufacturing his own version
> so it may be worth getting in touch with him!!
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
>
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Michael Roberts
> <type500@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I see there are a few manufactures of decouplers. What are people
> running over here any why? I'm looking at a few upgrades and just
> want to know which options are the tried and proven ones. Would have
> to import the wrong one.
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________________
> > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/gift/
> >
>
6
Steve,
 
Why  do you run 2WD except on adverse surfaces?
 
Les
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?

I have the German decoupler fitted for a couple of years now,
beautifully made and it works perfectly, I only engage 4wd on gravel/
dirt and wet roads. I like when the bitumen turns to gravel reaching
down and pulling the knob out and hey presto 4WD!

Steve.

7
On 18.04.2008, at 11:16, Les Harris wrote:
>
> Why do you run 2WD except on adverse surfaces?

Because...

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve
> I like when the bitumen turns to gravel reaching
> down and pulling the knob out and hey presto 4WD!
>
... :)

.martin



--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
8
Martin.
 
I have a bit of experience in automotive design engineering and some knowledge of the econonomic forces that drive production decisions.  If there was any merit in running 2WD most of the time or on the whim of the driver, Volkswagen would not have taken the path of fitting a VC.  There are far cheaper ways of providing part time 4WD.
 
It comes down to whether the owner wants the benefit of full time all wheel drive or not.  If Volkswagen got it so wrong, then so did Porsche, Audi and a few others whose design and engineering excellence are beyond question.
 
Les
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?


On 18.04.2008, at 11:16, Les Harris wrote:
>
> Why do you run 2WD except on adverse surfaces?

Because...

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve
> I like when the bitumen turns to gravel reaching
> down and pulling the knob out and hey presto 4WD!
>
... :)

.martin

--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design. de
http://log.tigerbus .de

9
Les,

i know i know, it was just a joke. The question is rather, why he
fitted the decoupler :) Most people do it, because their VC has gone
stiff - that also explains why he'd not engage it all the time. Why
else would i buy the decoupler? Maybe because i was looking for that
extra percent of traction without digging in the rears in deep sand
when using a straight shaft... I guess you just wanted to know why he
chose to build in a decoupler :D

.martin, decoupler because of EMPTY vc and straight shaft :)

On 18.04.2008, at 11:26, Les Harris wrote:
> Martin.
>
> I have a bit of experience in automotive design engineering and some
> knowledge of the econonomic forces that drive production decisions.
> If there was any merit in running 2WD most of the time or on the
> whim of the driver, Volkswagen would not have taken the path of
> fitting a VC. There are far cheaper ways of providing part time 4WD.
>
> It comes down to whether the owner wants the benefit of full time
> all wheel drive or not. If Volkswagen got it so wrong, then so did
> Porsche, Audi and a few others whose design and engineering
> excellence are beyond question.
>
> Les
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin Henning
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?
>
>
> On 18.04.2008, at 11:16, Les Harris wrote:
> >
> > Why do you run 2WD except on adverse surfaces?
>
> Because...
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Steve
> > I like when the bitumen turns to gravel reaching
> > down and pulling the knob out and hey presto 4WD!
> >
> ... :)
>
> .martin
>
> --
> Martin Henning, DM5OY
> martin@easy2design.de
> http://log.tigerbus.de
>
>
>



--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
10
Les,

I want to preserve the box as much as possible + I have an aggressive
VC, I believe that there would be very few occasions when there is no
difference between speeds and there would always be some push and pull
between the front and rear axles which is transfered through the
gearbox, the VC always transfers a certain amount of torque ( lift up
one front wheel and try to turn it ) , while this may be acceptable it
does have some effect on the wear an tear on the gear box internals,
the vans are are no spring chickens and I would imagine far outside
the intended service life design parameter. Further more if anyone is
thinking that taking every precaution in regards to the gear box life
in favor of perceived safety is wrong, they should try to source a
second hand gear box. just my 2 cents.

regards

Steve
11
Steve,
 
We are now in the realm of trying to quantify degrees of "aggression" in a VC, which can obviously range from as new to locked solid. 
 
Yes, having the front wheels being driven adds to the wear and tear.  The only way to avoid that is to remove the propeller shaft and forget that it was ever an AWD vehicle.
 
Before that point - locked solid - are the varying degrees of response by the VC.  As I have said in several recent posts, there is ALWAYS an input to the front wheels.  In a new VC, the amount of input is governed by the amount of speed difference between the front and rear axles.  In normal driving, there is very little input to the front - just a few percent - up to 100%. 
 
As a VC wears on the aggressive side, the input comes in earlier but remains within the capabilities of the whole drive train.  It would have to be near the fully locked condition before the load became significant, and then only when there are big differences in axle speed.
 
The service life of just about anything that Volkswagen ever made seems rather in excess than many other makes.  When they pass into the hands of enthusiasts, this goes up by several orders of magnitude.
 
If I had any doubts about the robustness of my gearbox as the result of an aggressive VC, I would have removed the prop shaft a long time ago while I sourced a new VC.  For now, I am quite satisfied with just decoupling to do full lock manoeuvres.
 
Les
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:45 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?

Les,

I want to preserve the box as much as possible + I have an aggressive
VC, I believe that there would be very few occasions when there is no
difference between speeds and there would always be some push and pull
between the front and rear axles which is transfered through the
gearbox, the VC always transfers a certain amount of torque ( lift up
one front wheel and try to turn it ) , while this may be acceptable it
does have some effect on the wear an tear on the gear box internals,
the vans are are no spring chickens and I would imagine far outside
the intended service life design parameter. Further more if anyone is
thinking that taking every precaution in regards to the gear box life
in favor of perceived safety is wrong, they should try to source a
second hand gear box. just my 2 cents.

regards

Steve

12
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
<leslieharris@...> wrote:
>Hey Guys,
I did ask Rudi this quest about more or less wear with or
without 4x4 and his remark was that a good vc shares load in the
gearbox thus less wear. His speciality is syncro gearbox rebuilding
trained in Austria by VW. This was passed on to me so may not be what
he would say here on this forum. However i thought it may be worth
adding here as my opinion from an expert source!!!!!

Regards to All
Pete
> Steve,
>
> We are now in the realm of trying to quantify degrees of
"aggression" in a VC, which can obviously range from as new to locked
solid.
>
> Yes, having the front wheels being driven adds to the wear and tear.
The only way to avoid that is to remove the propeller shaft and
forget that it was ever an AWD vehicle.
>
> Before that point - locked solid - are the varying degrees of
response by the VC. As I have said in several recent posts, there is
ALWAYS an input to the front wheels. In a new VC, the amount of input
is governed by the amount of speed difference between the front and
rear axles. In normal driving, there is very little input to the
front - just a few percent - up to 100%.
>
> As a VC wears on the aggressive side, the input comes in earlier but
remains within the capabilities of the whole drive train. It would
have to be near the fully locked condition before the load became
significant, and then only when there are big differences in axle speed.
>
> The service life of just about anything that Volkswagen ever made
seems rather in excess than many other makes. When they pass into the
hands of enthusiasts, this goes up by several orders of magnitude.
>
> If I had any doubts about the robustness of my gearbox as the result
of an aggressive VC, I would have removed the prop shaft a long time
ago while I sourced a new VC. For now, I am quite satisfied with just
decoupling to do full lock manoeuvres.
>
> Les
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:45 PM
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?
>
>
> Les,
>
> I want to preserve the box as much as possible + I have an aggressive
> VC, I believe that there would be very few occasions when there is no
> difference between speeds and there would always be some push and pull
> between the front and rear axles which is transfered through the
> gearbox, the VC always transfers a certain amount of torque ( lift up
> one front wheel and try to turn it ) , while this may be acceptable it
> does have some effect on the wear an tear on the gear box internals,
> the vans are are no spring chickens and I would imagine far outside
> the intended service life design parameter. Further more if anyone is
> thinking that taking every precaution in regards to the gear box life
> in favor of perceived safety is wrong, they should try to source a
> second hand gear box. just my 2 cents.
>
> regards
>
> Steve
>
13
Gday Steve,

Well stated ... all good. Spoken like a true blue syncrorealist.

Let's hope that for non believers, the penny will eventually drop.

Cheers.

Ken



--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <stevejacobson@...>
wrote:
>
> Les,
>
> I want to preserve the box as much as possible + I have an aggressive
> VC, I believe that there would be very few occasions when there is no
> difference between speeds and there would always be some push and pull
> between the front and rear axles which is transfered through the
> gearbox, the VC always transfers a certain amount of torque ( lift up
> one front wheel and try to turn it ) , while this may be acceptable it
> does have some effect on the wear an tear on the gear box internals,
> the vans are are no spring chickens and I would imagine far outside
> the intended service life design parameter. Further more if anyone is
> thinking that taking every precaution in regards to the gear box life
> in favor of perceived safety is wrong, they should try to source a
> second hand gear box. just my 2 cents.
>
> regards
>
> Steve
>
14

I realise that VW design the Syncro to utilise the VC and all things working with in spec is the best option. My VC is perhaps on the aggressive side (still trying to work out what’s normal) but my main thought about the decoupler are with tyre rotation.  Out bush if I spike a tyre or something and had to get a replacement this could mess up my tyre rotation (I normally run a 6 tyre rotation) and from what I have been hearing, having the tyre diameters all the same with the same pressure is important.  Am I right in assuming that with a decoupler I could run a mismatch of tyre on the front with out causing too much damage if i had too?   

 

So is anyone running the USA style decoupler? 

 

Michael


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15
Oh dear, this is getting to be bigger than Ben Hur!
 
Yes, you are quite correct.  You can run mis-matched tyres in the circumstances you describe - if you spike a tyre or similar.  With a decoupler, the VC is taken out of the system.  I does no more than idle.  If you have to run tyres of different diameters on the front axle (or the rear axle, if it comes to that), the diff takes care of the difference and you cannot do any damage. 
 
When the VC is running - that is, when the prop shaft is driving the front wheels - it is mandatory to run the same tyre diameters and the correct pressures
 
I don't know if anyone here is running the US style decoupler.  The last time I looked, the US decoupler ran a plain bearing in the extension housing; the German decoupler runs a needle bearing.  Needle bearings are generally superior to plain bushes.
 
Les
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?

I realise that VW design the Syncro to utilise the VC and all things working with in spec is the best option. My VC is perhaps on the aggressive side (still trying to work out what’s normal) but my main thought about the decoupler are with tyre rotation.  Out bush if I spike a tyre or something and had to get a replacement this could mess up my tyre rotation (I normally run a 6 tyre rotation) and from what I have been hearing, having the tyre diameters all the same with the same pressure is important.  Am I right in assuming that with a decoupler I could run a mismatch of tyre on the front with out causing too much damage if i had too?   

So is anyone running the USA style decoupler? 

Michael


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16
Thanks Les, that's the type of info I was looking for. 
 
Cheers,
Michael

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17
Michael
That is the exact reason I put the decoupler in, plus I do not have power steering and it makes parking easier.

Bruce


On 23/04/2008, at 6:20 PM, Michael Roberts wrote:

I realise that VW design the Syncro to utilise the VC and all things working with in spec is the best option. My VC is perhaps on the aggressive side (still trying to work out what’s normal) but my main thought about the decoupler are with tyre rotation. Out bush if I spike a tyre or something and had to get a replacement this could mess up my tyre rotation (I normally run a 6 tyre rotation) and from what I have been hearing, having the tyre diameters all the same with the same pressure is important. Am I right in assuming that with a decoupler I could run a mismatch of tyre on the front with out causing too much damage if i had too?

So is anyone running the USA style decoupler?

Michael


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18
I should have added that I am running the USA decoupler and it is going OK. Gave it a good workout today in the sand at Byfield on a short trip with Andrew and Melissa. A good day was had by all.

Bruce


On 23/04/2008, at 6:20 PM, Michael Roberts wrote:

I realise that VW design the Syncro to utilise the VC and all things working with in spec is the best option. My VC is perhaps on the aggressive side (still trying to work out what’s normal) but my main thought about the decoupler are with tyre rotation. Out bush if I spike a tyre or something and had to get a replacement this could mess up my tyre rotation (I normally run a 6 tyre rotation) and from what I have been hearing, having the tyre diameters all the same with the same pressure is important. Am I right in assuming that with a decoupler I could run a mismatch of tyre on the front with out causing too much damage if i had too?

So is anyone running the USA style decoupler?

Michael


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19
Hi Les and others,
I havn't had time to log on to the forum for a while so it was good
to do so tonight and find a healthy discussion going on about the
merits of replacing VC's or fitting decouplers. Les's method of
driving in AWD most of the time and only using the decoupler in
situations that could stress the drivetrain makes sense to me.
It seems that unequal tyre wear could be the greatest threat, even
with a healthy VC. I haven't got round to accurately measuring my
wheels yet, but after checking the tyre pressures, I put a chalk mark
at the bottom of each tyre and drove straight ahead for about 20
metres. I found that the rear left wheel mark was slightly out
compared to the others so this requires further investigation. If
there is a difference between tyre diameters, what can be done about
it, other than buying a whole new set of tyres when they are only
part worn.
I would also like to try the rear wheels jacked up test, should this
be carried out when the VC is cold or after it heats up.

regards
andy buchan





--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
<leslieharris@...> wrote:
>
> Oh dear, this is getting to be bigger than Ben Hur!
>
> Yes, you are quite correct. You can run mis-matched tyres in the
circumstances you describe - if you spike a tyre or similar. With a
decoupler, the VC is taken out of the system. I does no more than
idle. If you have to run tyres of different diameters on the front
axle (or the rear axle, if it comes to that), the diff takes care of
the difference and you cannot do any damage.
>
> When the VC is running - that is, when the prop shaft is driving
the front wheels - it is mandatory to run the same tyre diameters and
the correct pressures
>
> I don't know if anyone here is running the US style decoupler. The
last time I looked, the US decoupler ran a plain bearing in the
extension housing; the German decoupler runs a needle bearing.
Needle bearings are generally superior to plain bushes.
>
> Les
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Roberts
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: what decoupler to get?
>
>
>
> I realise that VW design the Syncro to utilise the VC and all
things working with in spec is the best option. My VC is perhaps on
the aggressive side (still trying to work out what¢s normal) but my
main thought about the decoupler are with tyre rotation. Out bush if
I spike a tyre or something and had to get a replacement this could
mess up my tyre rotation (I normally run a 6 tyre rotation) and from
what I have been hearing, having the tyre diameters all the same with
the same pressure is important. Am I right in assuming that with a
decoupler I could run a mismatch of tyre on the front with out
causing too much damage if i had too?
>
>
>
> So is anyone running the USA style decoupler?
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Yahoo! Canada
Messenger for the Web BETA
>