Driving Lights

21
In Western Australia they have to have engine imobilsers fitted.
You can buy a new Chery car in New South Wales, but they are not available in Victoria as they do not have stability control.



> Scott Daniel - Turbovans <ScottDaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
> You guys have to have hidden push-button starter buttons !!?
>
> that's gov sticking their nose in way, way too much.
>
> 'no sir officier sir, that's not a starter button ..that operates the
> beer pump ...the hose is right here, just for a nip now and then to
> keep me whistle wet."
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: plander@optusnet.com.au
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 5:43 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> > Phill says that the original system should be sufficient but these
> are
> > now old vehicles - mine is 22 years old - and things deteriorate.
>
> The copper doesn't, sometimes the connections do.
>
> >The ground connections should be OK but I will check them in any
> event.
>
> Common problem. Dissimilar metals etc. Mechanics taking them off.
>
> > I hadn't heard of the two stages in the solenoid before and I now
> wonder
> > about mine because I am obviously getting the 'pull' phase - I can
> hear
> > it and it is a sharp sound - but probably not getting the 'hold'
> phase.
>
> Hold phase is when the starter spins.
>
> It is illegal in NSW to have starter buttons. I wonder what your
> insurance company would think.
>
>
>
22
Scott,
I'm curious ......
Concerning lowering the rear of the engine a distance of say around 5"  ....
I've just had a look under the van ... so looking at it, seems to me the skid rails also would have to be unbolted at both the rear and midway fastening positions  .... correct?

Then where that midway skid rails fastening position is, that's where the front of the transaxle is bolted to the chassis. Are you saying then that those same front transaxle to chassis bolts don't have to be removed or loosened first as well? ... that instead, for lowering the rear of the motor around 5", somehow the engine/transaxle combo pivots down from there with those bolts left tightly in place?

With the rear of the engine lowered say 5", I assume that means both starter motor fastening bolts are accessible in that position and so can be removed/replaced more easily? 

Does it also then mean with the engine tilted, you can more easily get at the four fastening bolts holding the diff-lock actuator bracket? I believe that bracket and the actuator itself have to be removed so as to gain clearance room before the starter motor can be pulled forward enough and then lowered. Correct? 

So many questions !  ..................................

Cheers.
Ken

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: ScottDaniel@turbovans.com
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:12:58 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

I like to put a heavy duty generic push button starter on my 'keeper' vans.
There's a nice spot above the light switch for one.
I wire it direct, with pretty fat wires, battery to switch, and switch to trigger terminal on the solenoid.
I leave the stock circuit intact, so I have two separate ways to energize the starter.
 
Sometimes, with age, the wires from the ignition switch to the solenoid will not give a solid enough shot of juice to the solenoid.  You could measure how much voltage is reaching the trigger terminal on the solenoid. Wouldn't hurt anyway to do that.
To access the starter on a Syncro, I lower the rear of the engine down ..
just those 4 bolts to undo on the ends of what we call the 'moustache bar' , at the rear of the engine there. Just lower engine about 5 inches ( watching not to pull too hard on wires, cables, or hoses ).
Then you can get at the wires on the starter nicely.
 
how old is your starter ?
how good are the ground connections at battery and front of transmission ?
It may be of use to know that the solenoid has two circuits in it ..the 'pull' one...
and the 'hold' one.  Perhaps one of those is weak when hot.
 
I only replace starter and solenoid as a unit together myself.
I only use genuine Bosch rebuilt starters with excellent results.
 
Consider the starter bushing in the bell housing.  They wear gradually.
It helps to undo the right inner CV joint to change the starter bushing - you can see and reach up in there better with that CV undone.
Good luck !
Scott
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Harris
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 12:07 AM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

I have a solenoid/starter problem and need some advice.

A problem has just appeared whereby cold starts are OK but it baulks at hot starts.   I can hear the solenoid pulling in but it is not making a circuit for the starter.

I thought that it might have been a battery level problem but found a standing voltage of 12.3, which would normally be more than adequate.   To be on the safe side, I gave it 24 hours on a smart charger to ensure 100% but I had the same problem today.

After standing for about an hour, it will start immediately and at a very good cranking speed.

The ignition switch is relatively new and should not be a component of the problem but I am considering installing a direct-wired push button switch in any event.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

Les

,_._,___



23

Ken,

Thanks for those questions because I am sure that I would have had to ask the same questions as soon as I started the job!

Les

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ken Garratt
Sent: 24 August 2011 18:54
To: Syncro _T3_Australia forum
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Scott,

I'm curious ......

Concerning lowering the rear of the engine a distance of say around 5"  ....

I've just had a look under the van ... so looking at it, seems to me the skid rails also would have to be unbolted at both the rear and midway fastening positions  .... correct?

 

Then where that midway skid rails fastening position is, that's where the front of the transaxle is bolted to the chassis. Are you saying then that those same front transaxle to chassis bolts don't have to be removed or loosened first as well? ... that instead, for lowering the rear of the motor around 5", somehow the engine/transaxle combo pivots down from there with those bolts left tightly in place?

 

With the rear of the engine lowered say 5", I assume that means both starter motor fastening bolts are accessible in that position and so can be removed/replaced more easily? 

 

Does it also then mean with the engine tilted, you can more easily get at the four fastening bolts holding the diff-lock actuator bracket? I believe that bracket and the actuator itself have to be removed so as to gain clearance room before the starter motor can be pulled forward enough and then lowered. Correct? 

 

So many questions !  ..................................

 

Cheers.

Ken

24

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

25

What I should have added to that was that the solenoid/starter function appears to be OK.   The variable appears to be heat only.

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: 25 August 2011 10:32
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

26
have you had a battery volt drop test done to see if you have a bad cell in the battery    bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

What I should have added to that was that the solenoid/starter function appears to be OK.   The variable appears to be heat only.

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: 25 August 2011 10:32
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

27
ok to all that have a front diff lock fitted or those who are wise about them as mine has decided to not work when i tested it the other day any advice welcome         bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

What I should have added to that was that the solenoid/starter function appears to be OK.   The variable appears to be heat only.

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: 25 August 2011 10:32
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

28

Bob,

No I haven’t but the fact that the same battery gets a re-start after the engine has cooled a bit tends to suggest that it isn’t the battery, particularly given that a cold engine needs more battery power to crank than a warm engine.

Les

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bob Dale
Sent: 25 August 2011 11:13
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

have you had a battery volt drop test done to see if you have a bad cell in the battery    bob

29
i think that the motor has compression still in the cylinders when it is hot which creates load for the starter motor i am having the same problem at the moment with another one of my cars and i will have a test done and let you know     regards   bob 
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Bob,

No I haven’t but the fact that the same battery gets a re-start after the engine has cooled a bit tends to suggest that it isn’t the battery, particularly given that a cold engine needs more battery power to crank than a warm engine.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bob Dale
Sent: 25 August 2011 11:13
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

have you had a battery volt drop test done to see if you have a bad cell in the battery    bob

30

Hi Les,

 

My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.

When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get over whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.

I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the starting process and start again. It works every time but  still it bugs me because one day it won’t work any longer....

I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...

I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter rotor could touch  the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor which I replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at the time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....

Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of the gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.

 

Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my auto electrician mentioned that he  fills the bush with grease then inserts an old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush will be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would that make sense to you ?

 

Hartmut

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

31

Les

It is highly probable that the brass bush in the bell housing is worn to a point where the shaft is off centre causing the armature to drag on the field coil magnets. When cold this drag is minimal and you get a good start, when hot expansion sets in and the drag increases to a point where the starter hardly spins.  This occurred on my syncro and a new bush fixed the problem. Worth checking out.

Regards

Yurik

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 8:52 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

What I should have added to that was that the solenoid/starter function appears to be OK.   The variable appears to be heat only.

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: 25 August 2011 10:32
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

32

Yurik,

Thanks for this information; I wasn’t clear what role a worn bush might play but this explains it.   Under these circumstances, would the starter rotate at all or just bind and not budge?

The next question echoes Hartmut – what is the best way to get the bush out?   I am handicapped here because I have yet to physically see the bush location.   I will not pull anything out until I have collected all the information that is coming in.

Les

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Yurik Orlowsky
Sent: 25 August 2011 12:29
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Les

It is highly probable that the brass bush in the bell housing is worn to a point where the shaft is off centre causing the armature to drag on the field coil magnets. When cold this drag is minimal and you get a good start, when hot expansion sets in and the drag increases to a point where the starter hardly spins.  This occurred on my syncro and a new bush fixed the problem. Worth checking out.

Regards

Yurik

 

33
> When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the
> compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get over
> whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.
>

That sounds like water leaking into the cylinder.

Take one spark plug out and see if it makes a difference. Then replace it and try another etc.


> Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first

Screw a tap into it, then pull it out.




> he fills the bush with grease then inserts an
> old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush
> will be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would that
> make sense to you ?
>

Isn't it hollow behind the bush? (I'll have a look later)

Don't forget to soak the new bush in oil overnight. Don't get grease anywhere near it.

Phill
34
Under these circumstances, would the starter rotate at all or just bind and not budge?

Either.

This is a very common VW problem as people replace the starter but not the bush. And people put grease on the shaft thinking that they are doing the right thing. That really destroys them.
35

It is always very gratifying to see the collective experience and wisdom roll in when someone asks for advice.   This is the group working at its best.

Les

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of plander@optusnet.com.au
Sent: 25 August 2011 12:41
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 


> When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the
> compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get
over
> whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.
>

That sounds like water leaking into the cylinder.

Take one spark plug out and see if it makes a difference. Then replace it and try another etc.

> Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first

Screw a tap into it, then pull it out.

> he fills the bush with grease then inserts an
> old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush
> will be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would
that
> make sense to you ?
>

Isn't it hollow behind the bush? (I'll have a look later)

Don't forget to soak the new bush in oil overnight. Don't get grease anywhere near it.

Phill

36

Hi Hartmut,

The bush in the bell housing is a sleave open both ends and hydraulic pressure could not exist to push the bush out. What can be used is a punch with a diameter slightly larger than the starter shaft to tap out the bush. The bush needs to be caught before it drops into the bell housing. Another method is to use a stud extractor (tapered with an anticlockwise thread) screwing it in  tightly and pulling the bush out. All this sounds straight forward, and it would be with the transmission out, but with the transmission in situ it’s a struggle.  Lowering the rear off the engine to get more accessible space is a good suggestion.

Regards

Yurik

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 9:59 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hi Les,

 

My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.

When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get over whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.

I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the starting process and start again. It works every time but  still it bugs me because one day it won’t work any longer....

I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...

I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter rotor could touch  the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor which I replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at the time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....

Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of the gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.

 

Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my auto electrician mentioned that he  fills the bush with grease then inserts an old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush will be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would that make sense to you ?

 

Hartmut

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

37
Very interesting thread and some very good info from all who have replied,especially about replacing the bush when doing starters.
Once it has been out and put back in again,you dont want to have to pull it out again,in the near future.If you dont replace the bush,you will have to pull the starter back out soon!
BenC

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Yurik Orlowsky" <yuriko@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Hartmut,
>
> The bush in the bell housing is a sleave open both ends and hydraulic
> pressure could not exist to push the bush out. What can be used is a punch
> with a diameter slightly larger than the starter shaft to tap out the bush.
> The bush needs to be caught before it drops into the bell housing. Another
> method is to use a stud extractor (tapered with an anticlockwise thread)
> screwing it in tightly and pulling the bush out. All this sounds straight
> forward, and it would be with the transmission out, but with the
> transmission in situ it's a struggle. Lowering the rear off the engine to
> get more accessible space is a good suggestion.
>
> Regards
>
> Yurik
>
>
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
> Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 9:59 AM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Les,
>
>
>
> My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.
>
> When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the
> compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get over
> whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.
>
> I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the starting
> process and start again. It works every time but still it bugs me because
> one day it won't work any longer....
>
> I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...
>
> I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter rotor
> could touch the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor which I
> replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at the
> time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....
>
> Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of the
> gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.
>
>
>
> Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my auto
> electrician mentioned that he fills the bush with grease then inserts an
> old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush will
> be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would that make
> sense to you ?
>
>
>
> Hartmut
>
>
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
> Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Hartmut,
>
> This is a bit of a worry. If you have done all this and you still have the
> problem, where does the problem lie? Presumably, it bench tests OK.
> Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself? If you
> have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should
> not be a problem. I just can't think of anything else.
>
> It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it
> was near seized solid.
>
> My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start
> at high cranking speed.
>
> Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling
> in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).
>
> After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.
>
> As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.
>
> Les
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
> Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
>
>
>
> Scott / Les
>
> Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the
> bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I
> haven't done to stop the problem.
>
> I have replaced the ign switch, ran a battery cable from the battery to the
> gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid ,
> fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still
> didn't succeed to rectify the problem.
>
> Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the
> 'moustache' and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for
> Ken to pay me a visit)
>
> Hartmut
>
38
When I have had starters repaired, they have come back with a new bush tied to them.



> Ben <bencroft96@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Very interesting thread and some very good info from all who have
> replied,especially about replacing the bush when doing starters.
> Once it has been out and put back in again,you dont want to have to pull
> it out again,in the near future.If you dont replace the bush,you will
> have to pull the starter back out soon!
> BenC
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Yurik Orlowsky"
> <yuriko@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Hartmut,
> >
> > The bush in the bell housing is a sleave open both ends and hydraulic
> > pressure could not exist to push the bush out. What can be used is a
> punch
> > with a diameter slightly larger than the starter shaft to tap out the
> bush.
> > The bush needs to be caught before it drops into the bell housing.
> Another
> > method is to use a stud extractor (tapered with an anticlockwise
> thread)
> > screwing it in tightly and pulling the bush out. All this sounds
> straight
> > forward, and it would be with the transmission out, but with the
> > transmission in situ it's a struggle. Lowering the rear off the
> engine to
> > get more accessible space is a good suggestion.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Yurik
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut
> Kiehn
> > Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 9:59 AM
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Les,
> >
> >
> >
> > My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.
> >
> > When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the
> > compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get
> over
> > whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.
> >
> > I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the
> starting
> > process and start again. It works every time but still it bugs me
> because
> > one day it won't work any longer....
> >
> > I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...
> >
> > I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter
> rotor
> > could touch the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor
> which I
> > replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at
> the
> > time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....
> >
> > Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of
> the
> > gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my
> auto
> > electrician mentioned that he fills the bush with grease then inserts
> an
> > old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The
> bush will
> > be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would
> that make
> > sense to you ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hartmut
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
> > Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hartmut,
> >
> > This is a bit of a worry. If you have done all this and you still
> have the
> > problem, where does the problem lie? Presumably, it bench tests OK.
> > Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself? If
> you
> > have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that
> should
> > not be a problem. I just can't think of anything else.
> >
> > It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component
> unless it
> > was near seized solid.
> >
> > My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate
> start
> > at high cranking speed.
> >
> > Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly
> pulling
> > in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).
> >
> > After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate
> start.
> >
> > As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.
> >
> > Les
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut
> Kiehn
> > Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
> >
> >
> >
> > Scott / Les
> >
> > Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to
> remove the
> > bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that
> I
> > haven't done to stop the problem.
> >
> > I have replaced the ign switch, ran a battery cable from the battery
> to the
> > gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch
> solenoid ,
> > fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still
> > didn't succeed to rectify the problem.
> >
> > Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the
> > 'moustache' and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting
> for
> > Ken to pay me a visit)
> >
> > Hartmut
> >
39

Hi Yurik,

Thank you for your input, I didn’t realise that the hole for the bush is open ended. I’m sure that I can built some sort of bush puller,

 

Thanks again, Hartmut

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Yurik Orlowsky
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 12:56 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hi Hartmut,

The bush in the bell housing is a sleave open both ends and hydraulic pressure could not exist to push the bush out. What can be used is a punch with a diameter slightly larger than the starter shaft to tap out the bush. The bush needs to be caught before it drops into the bell housing. Another method is to use a stud extractor (tapered with an anticlockwise thread) screwing it in  tightly and pulling the bush out. All this sounds straight forward, and it would be with the transmission out, but with the transmission in situ it’s a struggle.  Lowering the rear off the engine to get more accessible space is a good suggestion.

Regards

Yurik

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 9:59 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hi Les,

 

My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.

When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get over whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.

I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the starting process and start again. It works every time but  still it bugs me because one day it won’t work any longer....

I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...

I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter rotor could touch  the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor which I replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at the time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....

Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of the gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.

 

Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my auto electrician mentioned that he  fills the bush with grease then inserts an old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush will be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would that make sense to you ?

 

Hartmut

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

 

Hartmut,

This is a bit of a worry.   If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie?   Presumably, it bench tests OK.   Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself?   If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem.   I just can’t think of anything else.

It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.

My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.

Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).

After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.

As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.

Les

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem

 

Scott / Les

Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.

I have replaced the ign switch,  ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.

Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)

Hartmut

40
There always tied to any I have had repaired also.
I think many people may snip the wire and throw the bush over their shoulders.
BenC

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, plander@... wrote:
>
> When I have had starters repaired, they have come back with a new bush tied to them.
>
>
>
> > Ben <bencroft96@...> wrote:
> >
> > Very interesting thread and some very good info from all who have
> > replied,especially about replacing the bush when doing starters.
> > Once it has been out and put back in again,you dont want to have to pull
> > it out again,in the near future.If you dont replace the bush,you will
> > have to pull the starter back out soon!
> > BenC
> >
> > --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Yurik Orlowsky"
> > <yuriko@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Hartmut,
> > >
> > > The bush in the bell housing is a sleave open both ends and hydraulic
> > > pressure could not exist to push the bush out. What can be used is a
> > punch
> > > with a diameter slightly larger than the starter shaft to tap out the
> > bush.
> > > The bush needs to be caught before it drops into the bell housing.
> > Another
> > > method is to use a stud extractor (tapered with an anticlockwise
> > thread)
> > > screwing it in tightly and pulling the bush out. All this sounds
> > straight
> > > forward, and it would be with the transmission out, but with the
> > > transmission in situ it's a struggle. Lowering the rear off the
> > engine to
> > > get more accessible space is a good suggestion.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Yurik
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut
> > Kiehn
> > > Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 9:59 AM
> > > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Les,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.
> > >
> > > When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the
> > > compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get
> > over
> > > whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.
> > >
> > > I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the
> > starting
> > > process and start again. It works every time but still it bugs me
> > because
> > > one day it won't work any longer....
> > >
> > > I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...
> > >
> > > I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter
> > rotor
> > > could touch the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor
> > which I
> > > replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at
> > the
> > > time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....
> > >
> > > Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of
> > the
> > > gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my
> > auto
> > > electrician mentioned that he fills the bush with grease then inserts
> > an
> > > old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The
> > bush will
> > > be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would
> > that make
> > > sense to you ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hartmut
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
> > > Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
> > > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hartmut,
> > >
> > > This is a bit of a worry. If you have done all this and you still
> > have the
> > > problem, where does the problem lie? Presumably, it bench tests OK.
> > > Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself? If
> > you
> > > have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that
> > should
> > > not be a problem. I just can't think of anything else.
> > >
> > > It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component
> > unless it
> > > was near seized solid.
> > >
> > > My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate
> > start
> > > at high cranking speed.
> > >
> > > Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly
> > pulling
> > > in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).
> > >
> > > After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate
> > start.
> > >
> > > As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.
> > >
> > > Les
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut
> > Kiehn
> > > Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
> > > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Scott / Les
> > >
> > > Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to
> > remove the
> > > bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that
> > I
> > > haven't done to stop the problem.
> > >
> > > I have replaced the ign switch, ran a battery cable from the battery
> > to the
> > > gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch
> > solenoid ,
> > > fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still
> > > didn't succeed to rectify the problem.
> > >
> > > Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the
> > > 'moustache' and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting
> > for
> > > Ken to pay me a visit)
> > >
> > > Hartmut
> > >
>