Re: Starter motor bush - HELP !!
by fairwynds » 22 Jan 2011, 12:05
Fitted my new one this week. Apart from the fact that the motor factors have supplied a FAULTY unit (grrrrrr!!!) which is being replaced Tuesday, again (!) - the jobs pretty straightforward...
Mines an early 1900 DG engine, so there may be some slight differences (?):-
1) SAFELY jack up rear of van, using axle stands / ramps / chocks as required. Im sure the job could be done without doing so, but giving yourself more space will be preferable.
2) The starter motor comprises of (a) the motor and (b) the solenoid. You replace both as one, they are joined together.
3) DISCONNECT YOUR BATTERY first!
4) On end of solenoid are a threaded post/bar with two fat wires going to it (one from your alternator and one from your battery. There is also a thinner, push on ‘spade’ type connector going to a fitting on the end of the alternator. This is known as the ‘exciter wire’. Lastly there is a fitted, thick wire going from the rear of solenoid into the main body of the starter motor, though a rubber/plastic grommet.
ALL these wires should be checked for security and degradation (breaks, green rusty muck etc) as they all have important roles and any one could give you starting problems. If they are sound and secure, they SHOULD have a coating of terminal grease ie ‘Nocrode’.
If you are sure that the wiring is not at fault, and you need to replace the whole unit, then proceed as follows:
5) Pull off exciter wire. Undo the nut holding the two fat wires onto the post (13mm?). Don’t lose the washer/s and nut (pop them back on the post). Ensure wires are tucked out of the way.
6) The starter is bolted to the gearbox ‘bell housing’ by two fittings. One is a nut fitted to a stud which you can easily see at bottom edge of starter. The other is more fiddly, being on the opposite side of the starter. It can be reached from other side of gearbox, and over the top, but take care not to damage your clutch hydraulic cylinder/pipes which you will see there. Using a spanner and or socket set, undo the lower nut. You may find that the stud comes out with it, due to the nut being seized to it. No matter, as long as its removed. You can always renew the stud and nut later.
The other bolt on the far side of starter is a long bold with an ‘allen’ type socket head on the starter motor side, and a nut on the bellhousing (just visible from inside the engine bay). You need to insert a suitable allen key/hexagonal wrench into the head of the bolt and use a ring spanner on the nut. it’s a bit fiddly but will come apart. Again, don’t lose these bits!
7) Now the nuts and bolts are off, you can free the starter. It MAY need a tap with a hammer to loosen it. Withdraw the starter, towards the front of the van, and down, past the water pipes (which should be flexible enough to push aside). Take care, as the starter is quite heavy for a small unit, mind your head!
If you need to (and you SHOULD do this) - replace the ‘Oilite’ bush inside the bell housing.Let me explain. Look at the starter motor you have removed. See the little cog wheel on a spindle? The starter operates when you turn your ignition key. As you turn the key two things happen: firstly, that spindle EXTENDS (you can see this if you take a firm grip of it a pull, its spring loaded so take care). As it extends an inch or so, the little cog engages with teeth on the ‘flywheel’ within the bell housing, and (should) immediately start spinning (using high ampage output from your battery, that we call ‘cranking amps‘), thereby driving the flywheel, and thus the crankshaft and all the bits needed to make the magic happen!
As soon as the engine fires up, the flywheel speeds up, you release the key (and it springs back a notch) and the starter spindle retracts again. Remember when you last had the engine running and turned the key the WRONG way, and heard that awful grinding/crunch noise? That’s the little cog trying to reengage with the already spinning flywheel - not happy, lets try not to do that in future!!
As the starter spindle engages the little cog with the flywheel and tries to turn the engine over, there is generated a large sideways force, trying to throw the spindle SIDEWAYS, away from the flywheel, In order to stop this, but allow the spindle to spin freely, there is a bush, some call it copper or brass, but strictly speaking its an ‘Oilite’ bush, and it it a tight, push fit into the bell housing.
*** removal of the old bush, and refitting the new one is covered in detail in the WIKI ***
The only thing I’d add is: use electrical tape/string etc, whatever it takes, to NOT lose the bush, or your tools, into the bell housing!! IF you do lose the bush and cant retrieve it, it will probably be mashed into pieces by the flywheel teeth and stay at bottom of bell housing until the clutch is next changed, so it ought not cause any problems for you.
9) Fit your new starter motor, ensuring you correctly fit the wires and coat it all in Nocrode or similar (it gets an awful lot of road debris and splashing in that position!)
10) reconnect battery, lower the van back to ground, and away you go.
11) With all these jobs, check security of unit again after a few hundred miles…just in case.
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: hartis@live.com.au
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:58:41 +1000
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
Hi Les,
My problem is somewhat dissimilar from what you experience.
When I hop in to start the engine it turns over but is stopped by the compression of one cylinder. If I keep on holding the key it might get over whatever is holding it back and is gaining momentum and it starts.
I have learnt to start for a second or two, then interrupt the starting process and start again. It works every time but still it bugs me because one day it won’t work any longer....
I also bought a new battery although the old one was still ok...
I mentioned the outrigger bush because if that is worn the starter rotor could touch the stator . I believe to remember that the old rotor which I replaced was a bit shiny on one section of its circumference, which at the time (2 years back) must have escaped my attention.....
Have to bite the bullet and get the thing out, also because of the of the gearbox/difflock actuator oil leak.
Now to replace the outrigger bush , one has get it out first and my auto electrician mentioned that he fills the bush with grease then inserts an old rotor shaft and gives it a solid hit with a decent hammer. The bush will be squeezed out by hydraulic pressure, wonder if that works. Would that make sense to you ?
Hartmut
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les Harris
Sent: Thursday, 25 August 2011 10:32 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
Hartmut,
This is a bit of a worry. If you have done all this and you still have the problem, where does the problem lie? Presumably, it bench tests OK. Could it lie in the earth path downstream of the starter itself? If you have run an earth return from the gearbox back to the battery, that should not be a problem. I just can’t think of anything else.
It appears unlikely that the outrigger bush would be a component unless it was near seized solid.
My cold start is instant pull-in of the solenoid followed by immediate start at high cranking speed.
Subsequent attempts to start warm/hot result in the solenoid audibly pulling in but not resulting in current getting to the starter (I surmise).
After it has cooled, it is back to the instant pull-in and immediate start.
As I said, this is with the battery at 100% charge.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: 24 August 2011 10:51
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Solenoid/Starter Problem
Scott / Les
Please also replace the bush and Scott please enlighten us how to remove the bush, yes there is a trick to it. On my DOKA it is the one thing that I haven’t done to stop the problem.
I have replaced the ign switch, ran a battery cable from the battery to the gearbox for grounding, fitted a new armature, fitted a new Bosch solenoid , fitted a relays kit to the solenoid, cleaned All connections and still didn’t succeed to rectify the problem.
Once I have regained my mental/physical strength I shall lower the ‘moustache’ and attack the bush, hoping for the best (might be waiting for Ken to pay me a visit)
Hartmut