OK, Hamish, we got that four times. Please explain what it means.
Thanks
Les
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Hamish Dobson
Sent: 12 August 2009 20:32
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Cc: < Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com >
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Vehicle Design Parameters
Sounds like someone needs ta get out on the open rd in
Tha zombie and exp it ;)
Sent from iPhone
On 12.08.2009, at 12:38, Les_Harris wrote:
>
>
> OK, Hamish, we got that four times. Please explain what it means.
>
> Thanks
>
> Les
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> ] On Behalf Of Hamish Dobson
> Sent: 12 August 2009 20:32
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
>
>
> Sounds like someone needs ta get out on the open rd in
> Tha zombie and exp it ;)
> Sent from iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
Les,
We are indeed blessed having YOU amongst us , keeping the peace in the Camp Syncro, thank you , Hartmut
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Les_Harris
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 8:27 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
Ok, guys, cool it!
Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper, on which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it will appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs to be traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled down until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end retail price at the dealer’s showroom.
It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a road vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem, apart from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr? No problem – just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No worries – just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost is $10 million in the dealer’s showroom.
Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the intended retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is interesting to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing suicide.
And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro that rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces several other significant features to 25%.
Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an objective justification for every choice they make. There is no such thing as a board of directors that will accept “well, I think it feels better with this feature fitted” as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data or nothing.
Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients of sheet ice but not within the retail pricing framework. It is equally possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on board. Anything is possible.
My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle functionality FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: 12 August 2009 18:53
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
deliberately held back that dream machine!
I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
wordlist got lost on the way.
Sorry,
Martin
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Ok, guys, cool it!
Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper, on which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it will appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs to be traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled down until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end retail price at the dealer’s showroom.
It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a road vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem, apart from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr? No problem – just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No worries – just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost is $10 million in the dealer’s showroom.
Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the intended retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is interesting to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing suicide.
And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro that rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces several other significant features to 25%.
Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an objective justification for every choice they make. There is no such thing as a board of directors that will accept “well, I think it feels better with this feature fitted” as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data or nothing.
Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients of sheet ice but not within the retail pricing framework. It is equally possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on board. Anything is possible.
My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle functionality FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: 12 August 2009 18:53
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
deliberately held back that dream machine!
I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
wordlist got lost on the way.
Sorry,
Martin
Mark,
Would you have a pic of that 1 liter per 100 km VW ? I would love to see it. Diesel? Petrol? Or what. Hartmut
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kofahl
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 9:48 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
Les,
a good recent example of engineering a vehicle to a desired outcome for a
Retail Price is the Bugatti Veyron.
Interestingly, the man behind this 10-year engineering effort is one Ferdinand
Piech. A very interesting individual
- grandson of Ferdinand Porsche
- headed the development of the quattro all-wheel-drive system in the Audi in
order to conquer the World Rally Championship (successfully)
- was on the Porsche 906 then 917 racing program in order to win Le Mans 24-hr
enduro
- responsible for development of one of the most important aerodynamic advances
in automotive design - Audi 100 with flush fitting glass
- pioneered the 1l/100km vehicle at VW and drove this personally across Germany
to demonstrate
- approved the Veyron 16.4 program - a 10-year effort to produce the world's
fastest production vehicle with in requirement of 400km/h
Whilst Piech was at Audi during the 80s, his influence and reach has been well
documented and I dare speculate he would have been consulted on the Syncro
program. But that is not the point.
The man is surely to be known in history as one of the greatest vehicle
engineers - whether economy or speed or whatever purpose - it can be designed
and built as Les says.
On a side note - I have met Piech and found him to be somewhat aloof and not
terribly personable.
Mark.
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Ok, guys, cool it!
Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper, on which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it will appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs to be traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled down until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end retail price at the dealer’s showroom.
It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a road vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem, apart from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr? No problem – just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No worries – just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost is $10 million in the dealer’s showroom.
Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the intended retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is interesting to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing suicide.
And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro that rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces several other significant features to 25%.
Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an objective justification for every choice they make. There is no such thing as a board of directors that will accept “well, I think it feels better with this feature fitted” as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data or nothing.
Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients of sheet ice but not within the retail pricing framework. It is equally possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on board. Anything is possible.
My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle functionality FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: 12 August 2009 18:53
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
deliberately held back that dream machine!
I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
wordlist got lost on the way.
Sorry,
Martin
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@live.com.au> wrote:
Mark,
Would you have a pic of that 1 liter per 100 km VW ? I would love to see it. Diesel? Petrol? Or what. Hartmut
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Kofahl
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 9:48 PM
Les,
a good recent example of engineering a vehicle to a desired outcome for a Retail Price is the Bugatti Veyron.
Interestingly, the man behind this 10-year engineering effort is one Ferdinand Piech. A very interesting individual
- grandson of Ferdinand Porsche
- headed the development of the quattro all-wheel-drive system in the Audi in order to conquer the World Rally Championship (successfully)
- was on the Porsche 906 then 917 racing program in order to win Le Mans 24-hr enduro
- responsible for development of one of the most important aerodynamic advances in automotive design - Audi 100 with flush fitting glass
- pioneered the 1l/100km vehicle at VW and drove this personally across Germany to demonstrate
- approved the Veyron 16.4 program - a 10-year effort to produce the world's fastest production vehicle with in requirement of 400km/h
Whilst Piech was at Audi during the 80s, his influence and reach has been well documented and I dare speculate he would have been consulted on the Syncro program. But that is not the point.
The man is surely to be known in history as one of the greatest vehicle engineers - whether economy or speed or whatever purpose - it can be designed and built as Les says.
On a side note - I have met Piech and found him to be somewhat aloof and not terribly personable.
Mark.
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Ok, guys, cool it!
Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper, on which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it will appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs to be traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled down until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end retail price at the dealer’s showroom.
It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a road vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem, apart from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr? No problem – just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No worries – just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost is $10 million in the dealer’s showroom.
Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the intended retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is interesting to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing suicide.
And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro that rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces several other significant features to 25%.
Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an objective justification for every choice they make. There is no such thing as a board of directors that will accept “well, I think it feels better with this feature fitted” as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data or nothing.
Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients of sheet ice but not within the retail pricing framework. It is equally possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on board. Anything is possible.
My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle functionality FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: 12 August 2009 18:53
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
deliberately held back that dream machine!
I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
wordlist got lost on the way.
Sorry,
Martin
Hi Hartmut
Have a look here;- http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-vw-1-liter-car.htm
Not sure if we can post websites here. If it doesn’t come out that’s why.
BRIAN REED
FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
185 Wingrove St
Fairfield, Vic. 3078
03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Hartmut Kiehn
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009
10:01 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Vehicle Design Parameters
Mark,
Would you have a pic of that 1 liter per 100 km VW ? I would love to see it. Diesel? Petrol? Or what. Hartmut
From: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
[mailto: Syncro_ T3_Australia@ yahoogroups. com ]
On Behalf Of Mark Kofahl
Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009
9:48 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a]
Vehicle Design Parameters
Les,
a good recent example of engineering a vehicle to a desired outcome for a
Retail Price is the Bugatti Veyron.
Interestingly, the man behind this 10-year engineering effort is one Ferdinand
Piech. A very interesting individual
- grandson of Ferdinand Porsche
- headed the development of the quattro all-wheel-drive system in the Audi in
order to conquer the World Rally Championship (successfully)
- was on the Porsche 906 then 917 racing program in order to win Le Mans 24-hr
enduro
- responsible for development of one of the most important aerodynamic advances
in automotive design - Audi 100 with flush fitting glass
- pioneered the 1l/100km vehicle at VW and drove this personally across
Germany to
demonstrate
- approved the Veyron 16.4 program - a 10-year effort to produce the world's
fastest production vehicle with in requirement of 400km/h
Whilst Piech was at Audi during the 80s, his influence and reach has been well
documented and I dare speculate he would have been consulted on the Syncro
program. But that is not the point.
The man is surely to be known in history as one of the greatest vehicle
engineers - whether economy or speed or whatever purpose - it can be designed
and built as Les says.
On a side note - I have met Piech and found him to be somewhat aloof and not
terribly personable.
Mark.
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris <leslieharris@ optusnet. com.au> wrote:
Ok, guys, cool it!
Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper, on which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it will appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs to be traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled down until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end retail price at the dealer’s showroom.
It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a road vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem, apart from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr? No problem – just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No worries – just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost is $10 million in the dealer’s showroom.
Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the intended retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is interesting to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing suicide.
And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro that rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces several other significant features to 25%.
Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an objective justification for every choice they make. There is no such thing as a board of directors that will accept “well, I think it feels better with this feature fitted” as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data or nothing.
Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients of sheet ice but not within the retail pricing framework. It is equally possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on board. Anything is possible.
My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle functionality FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: 12 August 2009 18:53
To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a]
Re: Solid Shaft
Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
deliberately held back that dream machine!
I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
wordlist got lost on the way.
Sorry,
Martin
> Mark Kofahl <markkofahl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Hart
>
> Check out
>
> http://envirofuel.com.au/2007/10/15/volkswagen-1l100km-car-to-go-into-pro
> duction/
>
> and some history here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car
>
> This was part of the engineering for winning a German Govt competition,
> if I
> remember correctly, to be the first manufacturer to put a 3l/100km car
> into
> series production. Volkswagen achieved this with the Lupo 3L -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo
>
> Mark.
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@live.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> >
> >
> > Would you have a pic of that 1 liter per 100 km VW ? I would love to
> see
> > it. Diesel? Petrol? Or what. Hartmut
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark Kofahl
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, 12 August 2009 9:48 PM
> > *To:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Les,
> >
> > a good recent example of engineering a vehicle to a desired outcome
> for a
> > Retail Price is the Bugatti Veyron.
> >
> > Interestingly, the man behind this 10-year engineering effort is one
> > Ferdinand Piech. A very interesting individual
> > - grandson of Ferdinand Porsche
> > - headed the development of the quattro all-wheel-drive system in the
> Audi
> > in order to conquer the World Rally Championship (successfully)
> > - was on the Porsche 906 then 917 racing program in order to win Le
> Mans
> > 24-hr enduro
> > - responsible for development of one of the most important aerodynamic
> > advances in automotive design - Audi 100 with flush fitting glass
> > - pioneered the 1l/100km vehicle at VW and drove this personally
> across
> > Germany to demonstrate
> > - approved the Veyron 16.4 program - a 10-year effort to produce the
> > world's fastest production vehicle with in requirement of 400km/h
> >
> > Whilst Piech was at Audi during the 80s, his influence and reach has
> been
> > well documented and I dare speculate he would have been consulted on
> the
> > Syncro program. But that is not the point.
> >
> > The man is surely to be known in history as one of the greatest
> vehicle
> > engineers - whether economy or speed or whatever purpose - it can be
> > designed and built as Les says.
> >
> > On a side note - I have met Piech and found him to be somewhat aloof
> and
> > not terribly personable.
> >
> > Mark.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris
> <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Ok, guys, cool it!
> >
> >
> >
> > Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper,
> on
> > which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it
> will
> > appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign
> > percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs
> to be
> > traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some
> > vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled
> down
> > until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end
> > retail price at the dealer�s showroom.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a
> road
> > vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem,
> apart
> > from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr?
> No
> > problem � just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No
> worries �
> > just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost
> is $10
> > million in the dealer�s showroom.
> >
> >
> >
> > Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of
> > compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the
> intended
> > retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is
> interesting
> > to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that
> > insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the
> > functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing
> suicide.
> >
> >
> >
> > And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro
> that
> > rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces
> > several other significant features to 25%.
> >
> >
> >
> > Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind
> > everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an
> *objective*justification for every choice they make. There is no such
> thing as a board
> > of directors that will accept �well, I think it feels better with this
> > feature fitted� as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data
> or
> > nothing.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients
> of
> > sheet ice *but not within the retail pricing framework.* It is
> equally
> > possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on
> board.
> > Anything is possible.
> >
> >
> >
> > My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP
> > engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle
> functionality
> > FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Henning
> > *Sent:* 12 August 2009 18:53
> > *To:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
> >
> >
> > Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
> > one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
> > lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> > killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
> > option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
> > do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
> > outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> > f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> > deliberately held back that dream machine!
> >
> > I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> > wordlist got lost on the way.
> >
> > Sorry,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 7:09 AM, <plander@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
I remember when the Lupo 3L came to Australia in around 2000. VAG had us line up our VWs along Bondi Beach and had a runner race against the Lupo for a promo film.
Has anyone seen this film?
> Mark.
> Mark Kofahl <markkofahl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Hart
>
> Check out
>
> http://envirofuel.com.au/2007/10/15/volkswagen-1l100km-car-to-go-into-pro
> duction/
>
> and some history here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car
>
> This was part of the engineering for winning a German Govt competition,
> if I
> remember correctly, to be the first manufacturer to put a 3l/100km car
> into
> series production. Volkswagen achieved this with the Lupo 3L -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo
>
>
------------------------------------> > Mark,
> >
> >
> >
> > Would you have a pic of that 1 liter per 100 km VW ? I would love to
> see
> > it. Diesel? Petrol? Or what. Hartmut
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark Kofahl
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, 12 August 2009 9:48 PM
> > *To:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Les,
> >
> > a good recent example of engineering a vehicle to a desired outcome
> for a
> > Retail Price is the Bugatti Veyron.
> >
> > Interestingly, the man behind this 10-year engineering effort is one
> > Ferdinand Piech. A very interesting individual
> > - grandson of Ferdinand Porsche
> > - headed the development of the quattro all-wheel-drive system in the
> Audi
> > in order to conquer the World Rally Championship (successfully)
> > - was on the Porsche 906 then 917 racing program in order to win Le
> Mans
> > 24-hr enduro
> > - responsible for development of one of the most important aerodynamic
> > advances in automotive design - Audi 100 with flush fitting glass
> > - pioneered the 1l/100km vehicle at VW and drove this personally
> across
> > Germany to demonstrate
> > - approved the Veyron 16.4 program - a 10-year effort to produce the
> > world's fastest production vehicle with in requirement of 400km/h
> >
> > Whilst Piech was at Audi during the 80s, his influence and reach has
> been
> > well documented and I dare speculate he would have been consulted on
> the
> > Syncro program. But that is not the point.
> >
> > The man is surely to be known in history as one of the greatest
> vehicle
> > engineers - whether economy or speed or whatever purpose - it can be
> > designed and built as Les says.
> >
> > On a side note - I have met Piech and found him to be somewhat aloof
> and
> > not terribly personable.
> >
> > Mark.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris
> <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Ok, guys, cool it!
> >
> >
> >
> > Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of paper,
> on
> > which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market it
> will
> > appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will assign
> > percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what needs
> to be
> > traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome. Some
> > vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are whittled
> down
> > until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and end
> > retail price at the dealer’s showroom.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want a
> road
> > vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No problem,
> apart
> > from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of 500km/hr?
> No
> > problem – just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No
> worries –
> > just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate cost
> is $10
> > million in the dealer’s showroom.
> >
> >
> >
> > Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of
> > compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the
> intended
> > retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is
> interesting
> > to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen that
> > insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the
> > functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing
> suicide.
> >
> >
> >
> > And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a Syncro
> that
> > rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this reduces
> > several other significant features to 25%.
> >
> >
> >
> > Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I remind
> > everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an
> *objective*justification for every choice they make. There is no such
> thing as a board
> > of directors that will accept “well, I think it feels better with this
> > feature fitted” as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical data
> or
> > nothing.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100% gradients
> of
> > sheet ice *but not within the retail pricing framework.* It is
> equally
> > possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on
> board.
> > Anything is possible.
> >
> >
> >
> > My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP
> > engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle
> functionality
> > FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
> >
> >
> >
> > Les
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Henning
> > *Sent:* 12 August 2009 18:53
> > *To:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
> >
> >
> > Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
> > one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
> > lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> > killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
> > option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
> > do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
> > outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> > f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> > deliberately held back that dream machine!
> >
> > I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> > wordlist got lost on the way.
> >
> > Sorry,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Yahoo! Groups Links
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> Haven't seen the film at allI haven't seen it.
> somewhere?Volkswagen AG
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 7:09 AM, <plander@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> > I remember when the Lupo 3L came to Australia in around 2000. VAG had
> us
> > line up our VWs along Bondi Beach and had a runner race against the
> Lupo for
> > a promo film.
> >
> > Has anyone seen this film?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Mark Kofahl <markkofahl@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Hart
> > >
> > > Check out
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://envirofuel.com.au/2007/10/15/volkswagen-1l100km-car-to-go-into-pro
>
> > > duction/
> > >
> > > and some history here:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car
> > >
> > > This was part of the engineering for winning a German Govt
> competition,
> > > if I
> > > remember correctly, to be the first manufacturer to put a 3l/100km
> car
> > > into
> > > series production. Volkswagen achieved this with the Lupo 3L -
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo
> > >
> > > Mark.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@live.com.au>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mark,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Would you have a pic of that 1 liter per 100 km VW ? I would love
> to
> > > see
> > > > it. Diesel? Petrol? Or what. Hartmut
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *From:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > > > Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark Kofahl
> > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, 12 August 2009 9:48 PM
> > > > *To:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Vehicle Design Parameters
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Les,
> > > >
> > > > a good recent example of engineering a vehicle to a desired
> outcome
> > > for a
> > > > Retail Price is the Bugatti Veyron.
> > > >
> > > > Interestingly, the man behind this 10-year engineering effort is
> one
> > > > Ferdinand Piech. A very interesting individual
> > > > - grandson of Ferdinand Porsche
> > > > - headed the development of the quattro all-wheel-drive system in
> the
> > > Audi
> > > > in order to conquer the World Rally Championship (successfully)
> > > > - was on the Porsche 906 then 917 racing program in order to win
> Le
> > > Mans
> > > > 24-hr enduro
> > > > - responsible for development of one of the most important
> aerodynamic
> > > > advances in automotive design - Audi 100 with flush fitting glass
> > > > - pioneered the 1l/100km vehicle at VW and drove this personally
> > > across
> > > > Germany to demonstrate
> > > > - approved the Veyron 16.4 program - a 10-year effort to produce
> the
> > > > world's fastest production vehicle with in requirement of 400km/h
> > > >
> > > > Whilst Piech was at Audi during the 80s, his influence and reach
> has
> > > been
> > > > well documented and I dare speculate he would have been consulted
> on
> > > the
> > > > Syncro program. But that is not the point.
> > > >
> > > > The man is surely to be known in history as one of the greatest
> > > vehicle
> > > > engineers - whether economy or speed or whatever purpose - it can
> be
> > > > designed and built as Les says.
> > > >
> > > > On a side note - I have met Piech and found him to be somewhat
> aloof
> > > and
> > > > not terribly personable.
> > > >
> > > > Mark.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Les_Harris
> > > <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ok, guys, cool it!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Every vehicle design in the world starts with a blank sheet of
> paper,
> > > on
> > > > which is written what the vehicle is intended to do, what market
> it
> > > will
> > > > appeal to and how much it will cost. Serious companies will
> assign
> > > > percentages against desired feature so that it can be seen what
> needs
> > > to be
> > > > traded off against what in order to achieve the desired outcome.
> Some
> > > > vehicles start with a most impressive wish list but they are
> whittled
> > > down
> > > > until a balance is reached between features, manufacturability and
> end
> > > > retail price at the dealer�s showroom.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is possible to design any vehicle to do anything. Do you want
> a
> > > road
> > > > vehicle that has the cornering ability of a F1 Ferrari? No
> problem,
> > > apart
> > > > from the $500,000 price tag. Do you want a top speed of
> 500km/hr?
> > > No
> > > > problem � just add another $500,000. Need to carry 10 people? No
> > > worries �
> > > > just add another $500,000. And so it goes on until the ultimate
> cost
> > > is $10
> > > > million in the dealer�s showroom.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Every motor vehicle that has ever been designed is a series of
> > > > compromises. The end result is to make a profit and it is the
> > > intended
> > > > retail price that dictates the extent of the compromises. It is
> > > interesting
> > > > to see the percentage evaluation process working. It can be seen
> that
> > > > insistence on a 95% functionality for one feature can slash the
> > > > functionality of another five features to 20%. This is marketing
> > > suicide.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And so it is with the Syncro. Yes, it is possible to have a
> Syncro
> > > that
> > > > rushes nonchalantly up rock strewn moraines (the 95%) and this
> reduces
> > > > several other significant features to 25%.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Before anyone fills their lungs ready to shout me down, may I
> remind
> > > > everyone that vehicle development engineers have to provide an
> > > *objective*justification for every choice they make. There is no
> such
> > > thing as a board
> > > > of directors that will accept �well, I think it feels better with
> this
> > > > feature fitted� as a reason for a design choice. It is empirical
> data
> > > or
> > > > nothing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it is possible to redesign the Syncro to rush up 100%
> gradients
> > > of
> > > > sheet ice *but not within the retail pricing framework.* It is
> > > equally
> > > > possible to redesign the Syncro to do 250km/hr with ten people on
> > > board.
> > > > Anything is possible.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My professional view of the (eventual) choices made by the VAG/SDP
> > > > engineers is that they offered the highest levels of vehicle
> > > functionality
> > > > FOR THE RETAIL PRICING FRAMEWORK.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > *From:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > > > Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Henning
> > > > *Sent:* 12 August 2009 18:53
> > > > *To:* Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP
> is/was
> > > > one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD
> transmission
> > > > lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> > > > killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the
> default
> > > > option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and
> so
> > > > do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to
> your
> > > > outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> > > > f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> > > > deliberately held back that dream machine!
> > > >
> > > > I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> > > > wordlist got lost on the way.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry,
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>for, (or
> Spot on Martin. Not all Australians (as Ken implies) have, or yearn
> would have had, in my case, with the Syncro now updated to a T5) areturn to
> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD. The marginal andquestionable
> improvement in soft conditions of not having that 1/6th of a wheelrotation
> before the VC locks up never outweighed the on road drivabilityimprovements
> of all wheel drive, in my opinion, even on dry bitumen. Has any-oneactually
> done any objective back to back testing (ie same time/same conditions;not
> just their own before and after fitting impressions) of vans with both(and
> systems fitted anyway? I think the only justifiable use of a decoupler
> only with a working VC) is when used as Les Harris says he does. Thatis
> ONLY decoupled for parking and full lock turns.Henning
>
>
>
> BRIAN REED
>
> FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
>
> 185 Wingrove St
>
> Fairfield, Vic. 3078
>
>
>
> 03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 6:53 PM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12.08.2009, at 03:15, Ken Garratt wrote:
>
> > Given VW had the choice but elected not to produce the solid shaft
> > syncro model, all some of us in Oz have done in effect is to create
> > it, because in our view this model suits Australian conditions
> > best ... unmatched allrounder syncro as a 2WD daily driver and a
> > most able offroader. So for us, fitting a VC in any form at best is
> > indubitably a retrograde step. However from your posts, I know you
> > are having some difficulty comprehending this.
> >
>
> Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
> one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
> lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
> option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
> do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
> outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> deliberately held back that dream machine!
>
> I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> wordlist got lost on the way.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Martin Henning, DM5OY
> martin@easy2design. <mailto:martin%40easy2design.de> de
> http://log.tigerbus <http://log.tigerbus.de> .de
>
On 14.08.2009, at 11:58, Ken wrote:
>
> Gday Bryan,
>
> Heh this is pretty novel.
>
> Concerning your words, by implication and referenced to me ... "all
> Australians have, or yearn for a return to
> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD."
>
> I've not said nor implied any such thing nor for that matter, anything
> even like it.
>
> I can only think you have the wrong person in your sights or else
> badly
> misconstrued words said.
>
> Now that you've done a job on me, please cut and paste here the
> offending words ok ... the basis of your implication ... I'd certainly
> like the opportunity to understand your statement. Thanks.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Reed" <breed@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Spot on Martin. Not all Australians (as Ken implies) have, or yearn
> for, (or
>> would have had, in my case, with the Syncro now updated to a T5) a
> return to
>> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD. The marginal and
> questionable
>> improvement in soft conditions of not having that 1/6th of a wheel
> rotation
>> before the VC locks up never outweighed the on road drivability
> improvements
>> of all wheel drive, in my opinion, even on dry bitumen. Has any-one
> actually
>> done any objective back to back testing (ie same time/same
>> conditions;
> not
>> just their own before and after fitting impressions) of vans with
>> both
>> systems fitted anyway? I think the only justifiable use of a
>> decoupler
> (and
>> only with a working VC) is when used as Les Harris says he does. That
> is
>> ONLY decoupled for parking and full lock turns.
>>
>>
>>
>> BRIAN REED
>>
>> FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
>>
>> 185 Wingrove St
>>
>> Fairfield, Vic. 3078
>>
>>
>>
>> 03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin
> Henning
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 6:53 PM
>> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12.08.2009, at 03:15, Ken Garratt wrote:
>>
>>> Given VW had the choice but elected not to produce the solid shaft
>>> syncro model, all some of us in Oz have done in effect is to create
>>> it, because in our view this model suits Australian conditions
>>> best ... unmatched allrounder syncro as a 2WD daily driver and a
>>> most able offroader. So for us, fitting a VC in any form at best is
>>> indubitably a retrograde step. However from your posts, I know you
>>> are having some difficulty comprehending this.
>>>
>>
>> Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
>> one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
>> lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
>> killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
>> option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
>> do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
>> outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
>> f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
>> deliberately held back that dream machine!
>>
>> I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
>> wordlist got lost on the way.
>>
>> Sorry,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> --
>> Martin Henning, DM5OY
>> martin@easy2design. <mailto:martin%40easy2design.de> de
>> http://log.tigerbus <http://log.tigerbus.de> .de
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
I am getting a bit impatient with this discussion thread.
There are some who prefer the 80% functionality of half a dozen characteristics in the Syncro as designed (and I am one of them).
There are some who prefer 95% functionality of one characteristic at the cost of reducing the functionality of others to 20%. Ken is one of the latter.
Les
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: 14 August 2009 19:58
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re:
Solid Shaft
Gday Bryan,
Heh this is pretty novel.
Concerning your words, by implication and referenced to me ... "all
Australians have, or yearn for a return to
the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD."
I've not said nor implied any such thing nor for that matter, anything
even like it.
I can only think you have the wrong person in your sights or else badly
misconstrued words said.
Now that you've done a job on me, please cut and paste here the
offending words ok ... the basis of your implication ... I'd certainly
like the opportunity to understand your statement. Thanks.
Cheers.
Ken
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com,
"Brian Reed" <breed@...>
wrote:
>for, (or
> Spot on Martin. Not all Australians (as Ken implies) have, or yearn
> would have had, in my case, with the Syncro now updated to a T5) areturn to
> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD. The marginal andquestionable
> improvement in soft conditions of not having that 1/6th of a wheelrotation
> before the VC locks up never outweighed the on road drivabilityimprovements
> of all wheel drive, in my opinion, even on dry bitumen. Has any-oneactually
> done any objective back to back testing (ie same time/same conditions;not
> just their own before and after fitting impressions) of vans with both(and
> systems fitted anyway? I think the only justifiable use of a decoupler
> only with a working VC) is when used as Les Harris says he does. Thatis
> ONLY decoupled for parking and full lock turns.NATURAL THERAPIES
>
>
>
> BRIAN REED
>
> FAIRFIELD
>Vic. 3078
> 185 Wingrove St
>
> Fairfield ,
>On Behalf Of Martin
>
>
> 03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 6:53 PMhref="http://log.tigerbus.de">http://log.tigerbus .de> .de
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Re: Solid Shaft
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12.08.2009, at 03:15, Ken Garratt wrote:
>
> > Given VW had the choice but elected not to produce the solid shaft
> > syncro model, all some of us in Oz have done in effect is to create
> > it, because in our view this model suits Australian conditions
> > best ... unmatched allrounder syncro as a 2WD daily driver and a
> > most able offroader. So for us, fitting a VC in any form at best is
> > indubitably a retrograde step. However from your posts, I know you
> > are having some difficulty comprehending this.
> >
>
> Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
> one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
> lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
> option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
> do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
> outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> deliberately held back that dream machine!
>
> I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> wordlist got lost on the way.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Martin Henning, DM5OY
> martin@easy2design. <mailto:martin% 40easy2design. de> de
> http://log.tigerbus <
>
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Les_Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
I am getting a bit impatient with this discussion thread.
There are some who prefer the 80% functionality of half a dozen characteristics in the Syncro as designed (and I am one of them).
There are some who prefer 95% functionality of one characteristic at the cost of reducing the functionality of others to 20%. Ken is one of the latter.
Les
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
Sent: 14 August 2009 19:58
Gday Bryan,
Heh this is pretty novel.
Concerning your words, by implication and referenced to me ... "all
Australians have, or yearn for a return to
the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD."
I've not said nor implied any such thing nor for that matter, anything
even like it.
I can only think you have the wrong person in your sights or else badly
misconstrued words said.
Now that you've done a job on me, please cut and paste here the
offending words ok ... the basis of your implication ... I'd certainly
like the opportunity to understand your statement. Thanks.
Cheers.
Ken
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Reed" <breed@...>
wrote:
>
> Spot on Martin. Not all Australians (as Ken implies) have, or yearn
for, (or
> would have had, in my case, with the Syncro now updated to a T5) a
return to
> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD. The marginal and
questionable
> improvement in soft conditions of not having that 1/6th of a wheel
rotation
> before the VC locks up never outweighed the on road drivability
improvements
> of all wheel drive, in my opinion, even on dry bitumen. Has any-one
actually
> done any objective back to back testing (ie same time/same conditions;
not
> just their own before and after fitting impressions) of vans with both
> systems fitted anyway? I think the only justifiable use of a decoupler
(and
> only with a working VC) is when used as Les Harris says he does. That
is
> ONLY decoupled for parking and full lock turns.
>
>
>
> BRIAN REED
>
> FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
>
> 185 Wingrove St
>
> Fairfield, Vic. 3078
>
>
>
> 03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin
Henning
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 6:53 PM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12.08.2009, at 03:15, Ken Garratt wrote:
>
> > Given VW had the choice but elected not to produce the solid shaft
> > syncro model, all some of us in Oz have done in effect is to create
> > it, because in our view this model suits Australian conditions
> > best ... unmatched allrounder syncro as a 2WD daily driver and a
> > most able offroader. So for us, fitting a VC in any form at best is
> > indubitably a retrograde step. However from your posts, I know you
> > are having some difficulty comprehending this.
> >
>
> Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
> one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
> lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
> option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
> do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
> outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> deliberately held back that dream machine!
>
> I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> wordlist got lost on the way.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Martin Henning, DM5OY
> martin@easy2design. <mailto:martin%40easy2design.de> de
> http://log.tigerbus <http://log.tigerbus.de> .de
>
> and tailoring them to our needs?Xactly. And the nice thing: We're all different, so are our vehicles :)
....and when we all do meet we become an orchestra every one of us playing a different instrument... the one with the s.s. pulling the the one with the automatic coffee maker out of trouble , accompanied by the deafening tunes of the one with those chrome plated extractors...aha...and then there are the three knobbers!!!!!!!!! A must have!!! [ Wouldn’t that be a great NEW subject???]
Francesca, you have to become our Concert Master [Mistress?], Hartmut
P.S. The red Tristar DC is gone into retirement today to receive a resto after 19 yrs of hard work , a Caddy Maxi has taken it’s place.
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: Friday, 14 August 2009 9:32 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Solid Shaft
On 14.08.2009, at 13:26, Francesca Coles wrote:
> and tailoring them to our needs?
Xactly. And the nice thing: We're all different, so are our vehicles :)
.martin
--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
Yes Ken, Martin has beaten me to it and has it exactly right. You were making it sound like Australian Syncro owners all view the decoupler/solid shaft as the ideal for Australian conditions. I never did, and as Les and Francesca have pointed out, there is as much diversity of opinion here as anywhere.
Perhaps that was not your intention, but it seems it wasn’t just me who read it that way. Any-way, as far as I’m concerned, this part of the discussion is now closed.
BRIAN REED
FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
185 Wingrove St
Fairfield, Vic. 3078
03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
From:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: Friday, 14 August 2009 8:03
PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia]
Re: Solid Shaft
Ken, Brian's post was a reply to your words:
"_We in Oz_ should be eternally greatful that the dreadful German
driving conditions you describe and experience were perhaps the
catalyst for VW producing the syncro in the first place."
[snip]
"_So for us_, fitting a VC in any form at best is indubitably a
retrograde step."
FYI,
Martin
On 14.08.2009, at 11:58, Ken wrote:
>
> Gday Bryan,
>
> Heh this is pretty novel.
>
> Concerning your words, by implication and referenced to me ... "all
> Australians have, or yearn for a return to
> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD."
>
> I've not said nor implied any such thing nor for that matter, anything
> even like it.
>
> I can only think you have the wrong person in your sights or else
> badly
> misconstrued words said.
>
> Now that you've done a job on me, please cut and paste here the
> offending words ok ... the basis of your implication ... I'd certainly
> like the opportunity to understand your statement. Thanks.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Ken
>
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com, "Brian Reed" <breed@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Spot on Martin. Not all Australians (as Ken implies) have, or yearn
> for, (or
>> would have had, in my case, with the Syncro now updated to a T5) a
> return to
>> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD. The marginal and
> questionable
>> improvement in soft conditions of not having that 1/6th of a wheel
> rotation
>> before the VC locks up never outweighed the on road drivability
> improvements
>> of all wheel drive, in my opinion, even on dry bitumen. Has any-one
> actually
>> done any objective back to back testing (ie same time/same
>> conditions;
> not
>> just their own before and after fitting impressions) of vans with
>> both
>> systems fitted anyway? I think the only justifiable use of a
>> decoupler
> (and
>> only with a working VC) is when used as Les Harris says he does. That
> is
>> ONLY decoupled for parking and full lock turns.
>>
>>
>>
>> BRIAN REED
>>
>> FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
>>
>> 185 Wingrove St
>>
>> Fairfield , Vic. 3078
>>
>>
>>
>> 03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
>> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Martin
> Henning
>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 6:53 PM
>> To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
>> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Re: Solid Shaft
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12.08.2009, at 03:15, Ken Garratt wrote:
>>
>>> Given VW had the choice but elected not to produce the solid shaft
>>> syncro model, all some of us in Oz have done in effect is to create
>>> it, because in our view this model suits Australian conditions
>>> best ... unmatched allrounder syncro as a 2WD daily driver and a
>>> most able offroader. So for us, fitting a VC in any form at best is
>>> indubitably a retrograde step. However from your posts, I know you
>>> are having some difficulty comprehending this.
>>>
>>
>> Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
>> one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
>> lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
>> killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
>> option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
>> do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
>> outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
>> f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
>> deliberately held back that dream machine!
>>
>> I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
>> wordlist got lost on the way.
>>
>> Sorry,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> --
>> Martin Henning, DM5OY
>> martin@easy2design. <mailto:martin% 40easy2design. de> de
>> http://log.tigerbus <http://log.tigerbus .de> .de
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design. de
http://log.tigerbus .de
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Hartmut Kiehn <hartis@live.com.au> wrote:
....and when we all do meet we become an orchestra every one of us playing a different instrument... the one with the s.s. pulling the the one with the automatic coffee maker out of trouble , accompanied by the deafening tunes of the one with those chrome plated extractors...aha...and then there are the three knobbers!!!!!!!!! A must have!!! [ Wouldn’t that be a great NEW subject???]
Francesca, you have to become our Concert Master [Mistress?], Hartmut
P.S. The red Tristar DC is gone into retirement today to receive a resto after 19 yrs of hard work , a Caddy Maxi has taken it’s place.
From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Henning
Sent: Friday, 14 August 2009 9:32 PM
On 14.08.2009, at 13:26, Francesca Coles wrote:
> and tailoring them to our needs?
Xactly. And the nice thing: We're all different, so are our vehicles :)
.martin
--
Martin Henning, DM5OY
martin@easy2design.de
http://log.tigerbus.de
Agree entirely - its a bit like asking "How long is a piece of syncro".
And to underscore we obviously have more that unites us than divides us, Les would you put me down for the November 60 year anniversary of Kombis; Day of the VW at Cranbourne with preceding night camping at Tooradin like last year. Also let me know how I can help.I could for example take responsibility for booking/liasing on numbers with the caravan park, although I will be overseas mid Sept to mid Oct.
Bit busy at the moment, but will complete my re registration for our group before the end of Aug.
Finally have attached a photo from our archives of Ken leading a robust discussion on the merits of solid shafts.
Cheers
Roger
--- On Fri, 14/8/09, Francesca Coles <fcoles6@gmail.com> wrote:
|
On 14/08/2009, at 7:58 PM, "Ken" <unclekenz@hotmail.com> wrote:
Gday Bryan,
Heh this is pretty novel.
Concerning your words, by implication and referenced to me ... "all
Australians have, or yearn for a return to
the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD."
I've not said nor implied any such thing nor for that matter, anything
even like it.
I can only think you have the wrong person in your sights or else badly
misconstrued words said.
Now that you've done a job on me, please cut and paste here the
offending words ok ... the basis of your implication ... I'd certainly
like the opportunity to understand your statement. Thanks.
Cheers.
Ken
--- In Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com, "Brian Reed" <breed@...>
wrote:
>
> Spot on Martin. Not all Australians (as Ken implies) have, or yearn
for, (or
> would have had, in my case, with the Syncro now updated to a T5) a
return to
> the old fashioned technology of part-time 4WD. The marginal and
questionable
> improvement in soft conditions of not having that 1/6th of a wheel
rotation
> before the VC locks up never outweighed the on road drivability
improvements
> of all wheel drive, in my opinion, even on dry bitumen. Has any-one
actually
> done any objective back to back testing (ie same time/same conditions;
not
> just their own before and after fitting impressions) of vans with both
> systems fitted anyway? I think the only justifiable use of a decoupler
(and
> only with a working VC) is when used as Les Harris says he does. That
is
> ONLY decoupled for parking and full lock turns.
>
>
>
> BRIAN REED
>
> FAIRFIELD NATURAL THERAPIES
>
> 185 Wingrove St
>
> Fairfield, Vic. 3078
>
>
>
> 03 9481 5673 0407 319 521
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Martin
Henning
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August 2009 6:53 PM
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia @yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australi a] Re: Solid Shaft
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12.08.2009, at 03:15, Ken Garratt wrote:
>
> > Given VW had the choice but elected not to produce the solid shaft
> > syncro model, all some of us in Oz have done in effect is to create
> > it, because in our view this model suits Australian conditions
> > best ... unmatched allrounder syncro as a 2WD daily driver and a
> > most able offroader. So for us, fitting a VC in any form at best is
> > indubitably a retrograde step. However from your posts, I know you
> > are having some difficulty comprehending this.
> >
>
> Always fun reading your posts :))) I can assure you, that SDP is/was
> one of the most respectable companies in the area of 4WD transmission
> lines. I can also assure you, that the every housewive would have
> killed the syncro in NO TIME, if the solid shaft had been the default
> option. But yes, i choose not to understand your point of view and so
> do many others - in OZ and in DE :) I hereby congratulate you to your
> outstanding understanding of the syncro and wish we all weren't so
> f*cking stupid. Especially all those dumb*ss VAG/SDP engineers who
> deliberately held back that dream machine!
>
> I might have to re-re-register for that post, but my proper irony
> wordlist got lost on the way.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Martin Henning, DM5OY
> martin@easy2design. <mailto:martin% 40easy2design. de> de
> http://log.tigerbus <http://log.tigerbus .de> .de
>