Syncro info

1
Ok so I’m a total newbie with the Syncro system, so looking for some info on how it works / what’s right or wrong.

My understanding is that my T3 Syncro operates as full time 4WD, however it runs mostly as (rear) 2WD unless the VC detects a difference in speed between front and rear, in which case it couples the front and rear and starts driving the front wheels. Correct so far?

So today I jacked up the front of my T3 (one wheel at a time) and found I could not turn the wheels as each drove the prop shaft and that seemed engaged. Motor off, gearbox in neutral. Does that mean my VC is cooked, or is it normal?
And, is the VC always there, or is it an option?

Then there’s the diff lock. On my central panel there is a single pull/push knob fitted, on the right. I assume this is a rear wheels differential lock, and that it is locked when pulled. When I pull it I can hear a noise (like an electric pump) however I have no idea whether it’s actually locking.

Also that central panel has three green ‘lights’. All light up when I turn on the vehicle lights. I read somewhere that all the 4WD stuff turns on when engaging the G gear, however I’m unsure whether that should be reflected by the lights in that central panel.

I know I need to do some serious RTFM, but thought I’d ask the people in the know first!

Thanks in advance for any advice or insights.
Cheers
Gaetan
2
Gaetan, you are right with your general description with the following exceptions. The rear diff lock (yes the one knob you have) is vacuum operated. If you engage “G” it doesn’t engage the diff lock or lock the vc. The illumination for that panel bleeds into the individual lights with the headlights on. The on light should be brighter though. Greg

Sent from Greg's iPhone

On 17 May 2018, at 1:54 am, lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Ok so I’m a total newbie with the Syncro system, so looking for some info on how it works / what’s right or wrong.

My understanding is that my T3 Syncro operates as full time 4WD, however it runs mostly as (rear) 2WD unless the VC detects a difference in speed between front and rear, in which case it couples the front and rear and starts driving the front wheels. Correct so far?

So today I jacked up the front of my T3 (one wheel at a time) and found I could not turn the wheels as each drove the prop shaft and that seemed engaged. Motor off, gearbox in neutral. Does that mean my VC is cooked, or is it normal?
And, is the VC always there, or is it an option?

Then there’s the diff lock. On my central panel there is a single pull/push knob fitted, on the right. I assume this is a rear wheels differential lock, and that it is locked when pulled. When I pull it I can hear a noise (like an electric pump) however I have no idea whether it’s actually locking.

Also that central panel has three green ‘lights’. All light up when I turn on the vehicle lights. I read somewhere that all the 4WD stuff turns on when engaging the G gear, however I’m unsure whether that should be reflected by the lights in that central panel.

I know I need to do some serious RTFM, but thought I’d ask the people in the know first!

Thanks in advance for any advice or insights.
Cheers
Gaetan

3
There is a good VC test which Ken should be able to advise you.

Also the VC if working should bind when turning a tight corner (U-turn).

An aggressive VC with a de-coupler is an excellent situation - but without a de-coupler you will have premature wear on the drive-line.

Greg answered the diff lock questions I think.

Cheers,

Scott

On 17/05/2018 1:54 AM, lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Ok so I’m a total newbie with the Syncro system, so looking for some info on how it works / what’s right or wrong.

My understanding is that my T3 Syncro operates as full time 4WD, however it runs mostly as (rear) 2WD unless the VC detects a difference in speed between front and rear, in which case it couples the front and rear and starts driving the front wheels. Correct so far?

So today I jacked up the front of my T3 (one wheel at a time) and found I could not turn the wheels as each drove the prop shaft and that seemed engaged. Motor off, gearbox in neutral. Does that mean my VC is cooked, or is it normal?
And, is the VC always there, or is it an option?

Then there’s the diff lock. On my central panel there is a single pull/push knob fitted, on the right. I assume this is a rear wheels differential lock, and that it is locked when pulled. When I pull it I can hear a noise (like an electric pump) however I have no idea whether it’s actually locking.

Also that central panel has three green ‘lights’. All light up when I turn on the vehicle lights. I read somewhere that all the 4WD stuff turns on when engaging the G gear, however I’m unsure whether that should be reflected by the lights in that central panel.

I know I need to do some serious RTFM, but thought I’d ask the people in the know first!

Thanks in advance for any advice or insights.
Cheers
Gaetan


--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
4

Hi Scott and ALL,


All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.


Bottom line is, a VC syncro IN original factory spec condition is a 2WD drive vehicle only, as follows.

Default drive effort is only at the rear axles. Or else, in adverse conditions,  VC sensing shifts it, only as required, to the front axles. So for normal hard surface driving conditions, it's a rear 2WD, front axles are simply rotating.

Otherwise, any other VC equipped syncro is an OUT of factory spec condition syncro ... either running a passive VC (little or no drive effort at the front) or else an aggressive VC (constant drive effort to some degree, at the front).


Instead of a VC setup, the alternative option is a manually engaged solid shaft. Such is capable of providing drive effort to rear and front axles constantly together, but ideally limited to driving in difficult conditions ONLY.  


So many choices with each their own management issues, and potential very expensive remediation costs if drivetrain components are abused or ignored.


Worth a read and digest at this link ... 

Goto: http://syncro.org/the-viscous-coupler/


Have a nice day!

Cheers.

Ken  




From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2018 10:01 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Syncro info
 
 

There is a good VC test which Ken should be able to advise you.

Also the VC if working should bind when turning a tight corner (U-turn).

An aggressive VC with a de-coupler is an excellent situation - but without a de-coupler you will have premature wear on the drive-line.

Greg answered the diff lock questions I think.

Cheers,

Scott

On 17/05/2018 1:54 AM, lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

Ok so I’m a total newbie with the Syncro system, so looking for some info on how it works / what’s right or wrong.

My understanding is that my T3 Syncro operates as full time 4WD, however it runs mostly as (rear) 2WD unless the VC detects a difference in speed between front and rear, in which case it couples the front and rear and starts driving the front wheels. Correct so far?

So today I jacked up the front of my T3 (one wheel at a time) and found I could not turn the wheels as each drove the prop shaft and that seemed engaged. Motor off, gearbox in neutral. Does that mean my VC is cooked, or is it normal?
And, is the VC always there, or is it an option?

Then there’s the diff lock. On my central panel there is a single pull/push knob fitted, on the right. I assume this is a rear wheels differential lock, and that it is locked when pulled. When I pull it I can hear a noise (like an electric pump) however I have no idea whether it’s actually locking.

Also that central panel has three green ‘lights’. All light up when I turn on the vehicle lights. I read somewhere that all the 4WD stuff turns on when engaging the G gear, however I’m unsure whether that should be reflected by the lights in that central panel.

I know I need to do some serious RTFM, but thought I’d ask the people in the know first!

Thanks in advance for any advice or insights.
Cheers
Gaetan


--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting

5

Just to add to what others have covered, even a factory VC has some resistance. So in your test, turning a front wheel by hand, gear box in neutral, yes it will turn the prop shaft and feel like it's permanently engaged. You need a decent load on the front axle to determine if it's working (there is a test where you raise the rear axle, put a block in front of the front wheel, put in low gear and see if it will pull the bus over the block. effective, but not exactly safe)

Yes, if stock the VC is always there, the "engagement" level depends on the relative speed between the front and rear. For example if your tires are not all identical diameter (due to wear, tire pressure etc), even on hard ground driving straight it can start to engage. This is why many people install a decoupler.


As Greg pointed out, when the diff lock is engaged the light will be bright, not just a dull glow from the light that comes on when the head lights are on. The diff lock is vacuum operated, but also requires the engaging clutch to align, so it rarely comes on immediately. Always engage when you are standing still. If the light does not come on bright, you will need to creep forward/backward slowly and while turning. This will eventually get the clutch to align and engage. Similar when you disengage, if the clutch is under a heavy load, it will not disengage until the load goes away, again might take creeping forward/revers while turning.

Best to try this on loose dirt/grass, not on hard ground.

If the light is on, it is confirmation it has engaged correctly. If you are on soft ground, turn a sharp corner, the diff lock will cause one wheel to bind/drag as you turn (will be very obvious)


Richard

6
When I read word like this I am totally confused:

"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."

My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.

The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.


7
Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:

"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."

My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.

The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD.
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive.

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice.
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example:
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on.

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
8
Yes, you are right Skot the decoupler was a great transformation when my first one became available.
Apart from serious off road, I never have 4WD switched on, but I remember an occasion in very wet conditions,
after a dry spell, I had notable wheel spin in 2WD, confirming my experience from before the decoupler was fitted.
4WD on a SYNCRO is very reassuring in wet slippery conditions on black top. 




On 17 May 2018, at 7:04 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot 

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



-- 
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting



9
So just out of interest guys, is the decoupler instead of or an addition to the VC? 
And, more to the point, is the decoupler still available, and if so, from VW or aftermarket? 
Lastly, if my VC is cooked, is it cheaper to fix the VC or go the decoupler route?

In the end, I think l’ll be doing mostly on road travel, but planning some wild camping so want the 4WD available for those times when it’s a must!

Cheers
Gaetan 

Sent from my iNuke

On 17 May 2018, at 19:53, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Yes, you are right Skot the decoupler was a great transformation when my first one became available.
Apart from serious off road, I never have 4WD switched on, but I remember an occasion in very wet conditions,
after a dry spell, I had notable wheel spin in 2WD, confirming my experience from before the decoupler was fitted.
4WD on a SYNCRO is very reassuring in wet slippery conditions on black top. 




On 17 May 2018, at 7:04 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot 

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



-- 
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting



10
Just a bit of info that maybe useless..

The only reason I would put in a decoupler in my syncro is if the VC was buggered. Otherwise there is no real advantage in the Syncro as you will always have the front diff spinning (though not loaded) and you would loose any frontend assistance in wet conditions on road.  

Toyota 80 series in the early versions had a VC but soon changed to a locking centre diff GXL models but retained it in the VX.
I dont recall it having issues like we seem to experience though in the Syncros

I changed my 80 from constant 4WD which was by illimatniating the centre diff to a decoupler and introduced locking hubs to stop the front diff axles and drive shaft from spinning when disengaged. When in 2WD I immediately noticed handling to affected.  It no longer had the front pull effect cornering and felt more unstable on the road. In wet conditions I could drift it getting the backend sideways around corners etc in the wet.  Basically I had to relearn how to drive it.  Having said that it was OK.

SO after all that waffle..  The ONLY reason I went 2WD in the 80 was I wanted to be able to having locking hubs to stop having to rebuild the frontend every 5 years and also allowed me to install auto locking diff up front.

Peter




Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: "Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia]" <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 17/5/18 19:04 (GMT+10:00)
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Syncro info

 

Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 
When I read word like this I am totally confused:

"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."

My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.

The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting

11
Hi Gaetan,

The de-coupler is just an extra control measure which VW originally planned to include yet they deleted due to cost issues (apparently).

You should either have a VC or a solid shaft (as ken has).

De-couplers are only available aftermarket.

I got mine from AA Transaxles in USA.

In almost all cases you need to provide the de-coupler supplier your stock nose cone but I kept mine and just paid the extra $$. just in case something went wrong with the de-coupler.

There are a few other providers from Germany which are good too.

Cheers,

Skot


On 18/05/2018 1:24 AM, Gaetan Schurrer lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

So just out of interest guys, is the decoupler instead of or an addition to the VC?

And, more to the point, is the decoupler still available, and if so, from VW or aftermarket?
Lastly, if my VC is cooked, is it cheaper to fix the VC or go the decoupler route?

In the end, I think l’ll be doing mostly on road travel, but planning some wild camping so want the 4WD available for those times when it’s a must!

Cheers
Gaetan

Sent from my iNuke

On 17 May 2018, at 19:53, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yes, you are right Skot the decoupler was a great transformation when my first one became available.
Apart from serious off road, I never have 4WD switched on, but I remember an occasion in very wet conditions,
after a dry spell, I had notable wheel spin in 2WD, confirming my experience from before the decoupler was fitted.
4WD on a SYNCRO is very reassuring in wet slippery conditions on black top.




On 17 May 2018, at 7:04 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD.
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive.

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice.
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example:
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on.

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting




--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
12
Great thanks Skot. It’s all conjecture at this point, but if my VC is cooked, is it serviceable (new plates? new fluid?) or a replacement? And what’s the cost? 
I think I prefer the idea of the VC to a solid shaft. 
Thanks everyone for all the info!
Gaetan

Sent from my iNuke

On 18 May 2018, at 06:13, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Gaetan,

The de-coupler is just an extra control measure which VW originally planned to include yet they deleted due to cost issues (apparently).

You should either have a VC or a solid shaft (as ken has).

De-couplers are only available aftermarket.

I got mine from AA Transaxles in USA.

In almost all cases you need to provide the de-coupler supplier your stock nose cone but I kept mine and just paid the extra $$. just in case something went wrong with the de-coupler.

There are a few other providers from Germany which are good too.

Cheers,

Skot


On 18/05/2018 1:24 AM, Gaetan Schurrer lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

So just out of interest guys, is the decoupler instead of or an addition to the VC? 

And, more to the point, is the decoupler still available, and if so, from VW or aftermarket? 
Lastly, if my VC is cooked, is it cheaper to fix the VC or go the decoupler route?

In the end, I think l’ll be doing mostly on road travel, but planning some wild camping so want the 4WD available for those times when it’s a must!

Cheers
Gaetan 

Sent from my iNuke

On 17 May 2018, at 19:53, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Yes, you are right Skot the decoupler was a great transformation when my first one became available.
Apart from serious off road, I never have 4WD switched on, but I remember an occasion in very wet conditions,
after a dry spell, I had notable wheel spin in 2WD, confirming my experience from before the decoupler was fitted.
4WD on a SYNCRO is very reassuring in wet slippery conditions on black top. 




On 17 May 2018, at 7:04 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot 

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



-- 
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting




--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting

13
There is a mob in Germany (I think) called Visco Werkstatt Kern that do replacement VC's for T3 syncros.

Their email address is: office@vw-kern.at

I am sure there are others but I have never needed one.

Cheers,

Skot

On 18/05/2018 10:45 AM, Gaetan Schurrer lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

Great thanks Skot. It’s all conjecture at this point, but if my VC is cooked, is it serviceable (new plates? new fluid?) or a replacement? And what’s the cost?

I think I prefer the idea of the VC to a solid shaft.
Thanks everyone for all the info!
Gaetan

Sent from my iNuke

On 18 May 2018, at 06:13, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Gaetan,

The de-coupler is just an extra control measure which VW originally planned to include yet they deleted due to cost issues (apparently).

You should either have a VC or a solid shaft (as ken has).

De-couplers are only available aftermarket.

I got mine from AA Transaxles in USA.

In almost all cases you need to provide the de-coupler supplier your stock nose cone but I kept mine and just paid the extra $$. just in case something went wrong with the de-coupler.

There are a few other providers from Germany which are good too.

Cheers,

Skot


On 18/05/2018 1:24 AM, Gaetan Schurrer lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:

So just out of interest guys, is the decoupler instead of or an addition to the VC?

And, more to the point, is the decoupler still available, and if so, from VW or aftermarket?
Lastly, if my VC is cooked, is it cheaper to fix the VC or go the decoupler route?

In the end, I think l’ll be doing mostly on road travel, but planning some wild camping so want the 4WD available for those times when it’s a must!

Cheers
Gaetan

Sent from my iNuke

On 17 May 2018, at 19:53, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Yes, you are right Skot the decoupler was a great transformation when my first one became available.
Apart from serious off road, I never have 4WD switched on, but I remember an occasion in very wet conditions,
after a dry spell, I had notable wheel spin in 2WD, confirming my experience from before the decoupler was fitted.
4WD on a SYNCRO is very reassuring in wet slippery conditions on black top.




On 17 May 2018, at 7:04 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD.
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive.

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice.
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example:
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on.

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting




--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting

--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
14
Welcome Gaetan.

From my notes:

- How to test and replace VC  http://www.syncro.org/VCTest.html
- Rebuilds from Germany (the proprietor did a Phd thesis on VC’s from memory!)  https://vw-kern.at/aboutus_en.php

There is also someone in the UK doing rebuilds. Look on the Syncro forum of Club 80-90 site.

Cheers.

Jon.

On 18 May 2018 at 11:35:59 am, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] (syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com) wrote:

 

There is a mob in Germany (I think) called Visco Werkstatt Kern that do replacement VC's for T3 syncros.

Their email address is: office@vw-kern.at

I am sure there are others but I have never needed one.

Cheers,

Skot

On 18/05/2018 10:45 AM, Gaetan Schurrer lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

Great thanks Skot. It’s all conjecture at this point, but if my VC is cooked, is it serviceable (new plates? new fluid?) or a replacement? And what’s the cost? 

I think I prefer the idea of the VC to a solid shaft. 
Thanks everyone for all the info!
Gaetan

Sent from my iNuke

On 18 May 2018, at 06:13, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Gaetan,

The de-coupler is just an extra control measure which VW originally planned to include yet they deleted due to cost issues (apparently).

You should either have a VC or a solid shaft (as ken has).

De-couplers are only available aftermarket.

I got mine from AA Transaxles in USA.

In almost all cases you need to provide the de-coupler supplier your stock nose cone but I kept mine and just paid the extra $$. just in case something went wrong with the de-coupler.

There are a few other providers from Germany which are good too.

Cheers,

Skot


On 18/05/2018 1:24 AM, Gaetan Schurrer lepews@me.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
 

So just out of interest guys, is the decoupler instead of or an addition to the VC? 

And, more to the point, is the decoupler still available, and if so, from VW or aftermarket? 
Lastly, if my VC is cooked, is it cheaper to fix the VC or go the decoupler route?

In the end, I think l’ll be doing mostly on road travel, but planning some wild camping so want the 4WD available for those times when it’s a must!

Cheers
Gaetan 

Sent from my iNuke

On 17 May 2018, at 19:53, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Yes, you are right Skot the decoupler was a great transformation when my first one became available.
Apart from serious off road, I never have 4WD switched on, but I remember an occasion in very wet conditions,
after a dry spell, I had notable wheel spin in 2WD, confirming my experience from before the decoupler was fitted.
4WD on a SYNCRO is very reassuring in wet slippery conditions on black top. 




On 17 May 2018, at 7:04 PM, Scott Pitcher spbconsulting@bigpond.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Sounds right Peter.

Yes all syncros are 4wd but as you say the 4wd only occurs when the VC locks up.

I like the de-coupler for the fact that I can eliminate the locking up around tight roundabouts and U-turns and the fact that I can control this is great!

Skot 

On 17/05/2018 6:27 PM, Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] wrote:
When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.



-- 
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting




--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting

--
Best regards, Scott Pitcher SPB Consulting
15

Hi Peter,


Thanks for your reply.


Yeah my opening statement was intended to be gobsmacking, albeit true. Glad it caught your attention!


At the bottom of my last post, I included a link to a document located at syncro.org, I repeat it here ...

Goto:  http://syncro.org/the-viscous-coupler/


Just in case you aren't aware, outside of VAG, syncro.org is recognised as one of, if not THE only longstanding, independent, specialist and authoritative publicly accessible source of most things syncro in the English speaking first language world. Hard to dismiss lightly.


So Peter, did you read and digest the content of that document, particularly that of VC function and VC testing?


If so, firstly in particular based on the conclusion in paragraph 2, do you disagree with it's statement? Given your reply, I can only assume you do not agree or else have misunderstood.

 

Given syncro.org standing, it would be quite difficult to refute their statement. To do so, you would first need to post here a link to a VAG official or else other authoritative organisation's contrary statement/documentation. Do you have such link/s you can share with members here please?


Secondly, the same document also covers the methodology of the official factory spec VC function test. Difficult as it is to carry out, especially in a home DIY scenario but nevertheless, it is what it is.


If you read and think about what needs to occur to fully carry out and complete this test, such methadology corroborates and requires the conclusion as stated in paragraph 2 to be accurate and true.


Welcome to the real world of VAGs 30 year old factory spec VC syncro 2WDR or else 2WDF drive effort.


Bring on the intractables. HA!


Cheers.

Ken






From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2018 6:27 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Syncro info
 
 

When I read word like this I am totally confused:

"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."

My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.

The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.


16
Hi Ken,

The second paragraph

When the front and rear wheels begin to rotate at relatively the same RPMs again, the liquid “deactivates,” becomes less viscous and more

liquid like, and as a result the front wheels/diff. disengage, and the van is powered again only or primarily by rear wheel drive.


Of course I agree with it, this describes exactly how a VC shuts down after operating.
I’ve been using this feature for years.

One day, years ago, I found myself using it to descend a steep hill, riddled with hairpin bends.
The VC contributed braking in the bend while releasing on the next straight, it was great to have it there.

My response to your statement:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.” 
Still stands unless the 4WD sticker was an electric sign, which tuned on when the VC was engaged 
and off when all the wheels had the same rolling radius and were turning at roughly the same speed of rotation.

Hope this helps.

Peter 


On 18 May 2018, at 12:12 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply.

Yeah my opening statement was intended to be gobsmacking, albeit true. Glad it caught your attention!

At the bottom of my last post, I included a link to a document located at syncro.org, I repeat it here ...
Goto:  http://syncro.org/the-viscous-coupler/

Just in case you aren't aware, outside of VAG, syncro.org is recognised as one of, if not THE only longstanding, independent, specialist and authoritative publicly accessible source of most things syncro in the English speaking first language world. Hard to dismiss lightly.

So Peter, did you read and digest the content of that document, particularly that of VC function and VC testing?

If so, firstly in particular based on the conclusion in paragraph 2, do you disagree with it's statement? Given your reply, I can only assume you do not agree or else have misunderstood.
 
Given syncro.org standing, it would be quite difficult to refute their statement. To do so, you would first need to post here a link to a VAG official or else other authoritative organisation's contrary statement/documentation. Do you have such link/s you can share with members here please?

Secondly, the same document also covers the methodology of the official factory spec VC function test. Difficult as it is to carry out, especially in a home DIY scenario but nevertheless, it is what it is.

If you read and think about what needs to occur to fully carry out and complete this test, such methadology corroborates and requires the conclusion as stated in paragraph 2 to be accurate and true.

Welcome to the real world of VAGs 30 year old factory spec VC syncro 2WDR or else 2WDF drive effort.

Bring on the intractables. HA!

Cheers.
Ken






From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Peter SCHWEINSBERG peter@peterandval.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2018 6:27 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Syncro info
 

When I read word like this I am totally confused:
"All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD."
My SYNCRO, when I bought it had all the mechanicals for 4WD.
The transmission was there to drive both front and back.
There were CVs and drive shafts to all four wheels.
The only thing that stopped the front wheels being driven was a viscous coupling which only came into action
when a rear wheel started spinning or I was driving around a particularly sharp bend,
at which time the VC progressively locked up and transferred some drive to the front wheels.
A very practical system of four wheel drive, because it eliminated lockup, the plague of some early 4WDs,
which were constant 4WD..

To overcome four wheel lock up, manufacturers introduced wheel locks, and the driver had to stop,
and someone had to get out and go to each front wheel and rotate the locking mechanism to turn front wheel drive on.
The vehicle was then truly 4WD. 
My point is, most 4WDs back in those days were 2WD until the front wheels were locked onto the drive. 

Fortunately in most 4WDs these days this is all electronic, you only have to select the program for the type of 4WDing you will be doing,
and the car does it for you. These too are 4WDs when you select a 4WD program.

So hopefully you can see why I am confused.

As an aside, a few weeks ago I joined a Tag Along 4WD tour of the wilds of the South Island of New Zealand.
I was allocated a rental Ford Everest, a very capable vehicle.
It was the full bit as far as electronics have come to my notice. 
It was 2WD except when you chose an alternative program.
Unfortunately for Ford, there were times when I wished that I had my SYNCRO.
An example: 
On the first day, on a narrow private property farm trail,
we were idling up a very steep hill through a cutting with rock walls both sides,
we had been warned by UHF that in front of us was a very long drop,
and that we had to make a sharp right turn,
all that we could see were the walls both sides and blue sky in front,
so peering out under the big fat drivers door mirror, it was just possible 
to see the end of the rock wall and get a glimpse of the track to the right.
My summary: wish I was in a forward control 4WD, like my SYNCRO,
Where I could have seen the void in front, and been in the gear of my choosing,
with the VC switched on. 

If I’ve misunderstood the quotation, please forgive me.






On 17 May 2018, at 2:54 PM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

All the 4WD stickers do on MOST VC vans is to deceive other drivers into thinking yours is a genuine 4WD.





17
Ken have you ever driven a syncro with a working VC?
18

Two questions there really.


Have I driven another syncro? Yes but only briefly. Not yet met a syncro owner who will lend me their VC van to comparative test run for a week or two in wet and dry weather plus off road.


Have I driven another syncro with a working factory spec VC? I don't know because I'm pretty sure, unless the VC test has been done recently, most owners don't know their actual VC wear condition.


Have you driven a syncro with a working solid shaft?



From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of plander@optusnet.com.au [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 18 May 2018 5:21 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Syncro info
 
 

Ken have you ever driven a syncro with a working VC?

19
Dear All,

Further to the discussion of Viscous Couplings on our SYNCROs, 
I’ve been doing some experimenting.

First test: I thought, I’d try for the rolling radius of my tyres to see if there is much difference in circumferences.
Checked each  to 42 psi.
Sited vehicle on smooth concrete, face down the fall line.
with the help of a carpenter’s square, squared a line down from the centre of the wheel hub of each wheel to the ground.
Marked the tyre and the concrete at that point.
With the help of an assistant, and without moving the steering wheel from dead ahead, let her roll down the hill till each wheel had a vertical chalk line from the wheel centre to the concrete.
Marked concrete for each wheel.
Measured from chalk mark to chalk mark for each wheel. 
Found a maximum variation of 10mm or 0.47%.



Second test: the distance each wheel travelled around a full lock circle.

Parked the vehicle on full lock with the inside rear wheel on a new chalk mark.
Drove slowly, a full circle back to that mark, all the while counting whole plus part revolutions.
Repeated the process for the other three wheels using the inside rear wheel and it’s mark as the starting point,
marking each wheel in turn from where it starts until it gets back to it’s mark,
while counting whole plus part revolutions.

Results: 
Inside rear wheel:      10.4 whole plus part revolutions
Inside front  wheel:    11.5 whole plus part revolutions
Outside rear wheel:   13.75 whole plus part revolutions
Outside front wheel:  15.3 whole plus part revolutions

Wow, our diffs do a lot of work, no wonder we don’t have diff locks on while on concrete or blacktop.

In order to evaluate the VC and how much slack it needs to cut before locking up, 
we need only consider the variation between front and back, assuming that the differentials would deal with the differences at both ends.

So I found a 10.5 % difference front to back on the inside travel for each wheel,  and 11.3% for the outside.
Guess the difference on the outside is the key.

The other day we were steered to SYNCRO.ORG’s  discussion of the Viscous Coupling.
There in para 1 they suggest that the VC should start to cut in at 6%.
Also on page 2, top of the page they suggest that a brand new VC will not cut in on tight turns.

Well I’ve demonstrated here that a full lock hairpin turn will at least start to turn the VC on.
Not a serious problem on a hairpin bend, because by 180 degrees you are now going straight ahead,
and the silicone is cooling down. My experience years ago descending a very long hill, through a series of hairpins, the VC assisting braking on the bends. 
But I recall a particular car park, years ago, which was a spiral, not quite full lock, but I noted at the time that the VC was working hard.

If you decide to replicate this test I don’t expect that you will get the same results.
It is all dependent on tyre size and pressure.
Given that my current tyres are 5% oversize, at 100Kph it is doing 105,
if your tyres are spot on,  you could reduce my numbers by 5% for comparison.

Any thoughts ?

Peter






On 19 May 2018, at 11:54 AM, Ken Garratt unclekenz@hotmail.com [Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Two questions there really.

Have I driven another syncro? Yes but only briefly. Not yet met a syncro owner who will lend me their VC van to comparative test run for a week or two in wet and dry weather plus off road.

Have I driven another syncro with a working factory spec VC? I don't know because I'm pretty sure, unless the VC test has been done recently, most owners don't know their actual VC wear condition.

Have you driven a syncro with a working solid shaft?


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of plander@optusnet.com.au[Syncro_T3_Australia] <Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 18 May 2018 5:21 PM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Syncro info
 
Ken have you ever driven a syncro with a working VC?



20

I like your write up Peter, and is a good way to look at it. From experience in my van, there is not switch from coupled to uncoupled, but a progressive change. So the 6% or 10% would not really matter.


Just on Ken's comments, I think it's a matter of preference what you want out of your Syncro. If you want all out serious off road capability I do not think there is any doubt a solid shaft will out perform a VC. Even an aggressive VC is not a solid connection, and in critical situations the difference in speed front to rear could mean the difference between stuck or not.

If however you are after a good all round performer and don't want to constantly monitor road surface, if you need to be coupled or not you can't beat a working VC. It will get you a lot further than a 2WD and it will be a lot safer on wet roads or hard dirt roads than with a solid shaft (as in you would need to decouple front to rear in these conditions)


The tests are well documented for the VC, but I would think some variation either way in performance will still give you a capable off road van.


I think the terms used commonly today are AWD and 4WD. I would consider a (factory) Syncro to be AWD. However the slip required front to rear is less, and amount of torque the VC will transmit is more than today's road going biased AWD cars.

So the poor Syncro is left in no mans land. Better than today's AWD, but not the same as a 4WD with a locking centre diff.

Richard