Wbx spark plugs

Greg, they don't have three sparks. The spark just jumps to the closest electrode only eroding one electrode at a time. Therefore the plugs last three times as long.

Phill



> greg esposito <gregespo73@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Les has hit on the reason, I believe, these plugs will give a more crisp
> acceleration. The flame front is starting in the right spot as vw
> designed with the plug location but importantly the spark has an open
> path outward toward the cyl and piston top. Combine this with the
> possibility of up to 3 sparks happening at once (three/broader flame
> front)����and you have a real benefit. In the old days we used to "index"
> spark plugs. This was the practise of ensuring the side electrode did
> not shroud the flame front. You would use various methods to get the
> side electrode to stop when it was closest to the wall of the cylinder.
> The other and biggest advantage to these plugs is they don't have poor
> spark events at low rpm like the standard plugs do. Hence the idle
> becomes a lot smoother.����Oh and if we are getting into talk about the
> development of the piston engine look out for some very high compression
> normally aspirated engines in a showroom near you. One of
> the reasons designers are being able to bring these engines to the
> market place is the work already done on flame propagation and quench
> dynamics.����Greg E
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 8 October 2012 10:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> ����
>
> Eddie,
> Flame propagation is the path taken by
> the flame as it spreads through the cylinder head until all or nearly
> all of
> the gas is ignited.���� We tend to think of this as being instantaneous,
> why
> it is, but it is not an even spread.���� Or, to be more correct, it
> wasn��������t
> until the search for better fuel consumption started in earnest.
> It is this development that has produced
> ever improving fuel consumption figures for the same power output in
> modern
> engines.���� In a lot of cases, it is reduced fuel consumption and
> increased power.
> This is all down to the flame
> propagation.���� Until quite recent times, an amazing amount of fuel was
> not
> ignited and exited the engine through the exhaust valve!!���� Some engines
> were so poor in this regard that unburnt fuel could be measured at the
> tailpipe!!
> Les
> ����
>
> ________________________________
>
> From:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eddie
> Sent: 08 October 2012 22:21
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re:
> Wbx spark plugs����
> Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up
> on that one. Eddie.
>
>
>
> ����
The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.

They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.

Phill



> greg esposito <gregespo73@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> little effort into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> ����
>
> If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> They are a standard part.
> Phill
>
> > eddie <mailto:bergodaz%40ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> Eddie.
> >
> > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > <leslieharris@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eddie,
> > >
> > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > technology
> > > has leaped ahead in the last decade. Chamber shape and induction
> > manifold
> > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > firing
> > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > advantageous.
> > >
> > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> measure
> > for
> > > safety reasons.
> > >
> > > Les
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> eddie
> > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > spark
> > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > performance.
> > >
>
> ����
They would have had to do a lot of testing to ensure the part was suitable. We are talking about a part that is manufacured externally to vw. It would cost them nothing to continue to use that part. When was it that 2.1 was released? 85? Which means development from '82-'83 I guess. Too early I think for this technology on a commercial vehicle.
You will notice that I mentioned the "posibility" of a multi spark event. I have had these plugs on a spark plug tester and at low rpms yes the spark tends to follow the "path of least resistance" theory. But at high rpm you start to get the spark spitting between electrodes. I am no electrical engineer and can not explain this but I have seen it with my own eyes. Greg E
 

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.

They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.

Phill



> greg esposito <gregespo73@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> little effort
into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
>

>
> ________________________________
>  From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

>   

> If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> They are a standard part.
> Phill
>
> > eddie <mailto:bergodaz%40ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
> >
> > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> Eddie.
> >
> > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > <leslieharris@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Eddie,
> > >
> > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > technology
> > > has leaped ahead in the last decade.  Chamber shape and induction
> > manifold
> > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > firing
> > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > advantageous.
> > >
> > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> measure
> > for
> > > safety reasons.
> > >
> > >
Les
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  _____
> > >
> > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> eddie
> > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > spark
> > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > performance.
> > >
>   
>         


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The fact that you saw a better spark at higher rpm's corresponds with the better performance I'm getting at higher rpm's. Glad I got some discussion going on this topic. Interesting to get different views on it. Looking forward to hearing opinions of anyone else who opt to use these plugs. Eddie.

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> They would have had to do a lot of testing to ensure the part was suitable. We are talking about a part that is manufacured externally to vw. It would cost them nothing to continue to use that part. When was it that 2.1 was released? 85? Which means development from '82-'83 I guess. Too early I think for this technology on a commercial vehicle.
> You will notice that I mentioned the "posibility" of a multi spark event. I have had these plugs on a spark plug tester and at low rpms yes the spark tends to follow the "path of least resistance" theory. But at high rpm you start to get the spark spitting between electrodes. I am no electrical engineer and can not explain this but I have seen it with my own eyes. Greg E
> Â
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.
>
> They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.
>
> Phill
>
>
>
> > greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
> >
> > They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> > the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> > engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> > They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> > old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> > performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> > little effort into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> > of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
> >
> >Â
> >
> > ________________________________
> >Â From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> >Â
> >  Â
> >Â
> > If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> > They are a standard part.
> > Phill
> >
> > > eddie <mailto:bergodaz%40ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> > Eddie.
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > > <leslieharris@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eddie,
> > > >
> > > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > > technology
> > > > has leaped ahead in the last decade. Chamber shape and induction
> > > manifold
> > > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > > firing
> > > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > > advantageous.
> > > >
> > > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> > measure
> > > for
> > > > safety reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Â _____
> > > >
> > > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > eddie
> > > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > > spark
> > > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > > performance.
> > > >
> >Â Â
> >    Ã‚ÂÂ
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> Â Â http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
Yeah Eddie, the definitive thing for me is always what you "feel at the wheel". My big bug bear with people doing comparisons on modifications they have done to T3's is when they compare worn out original equipment to new bigger and better stuff. Like "My brakes could barely stop the car before I fitted these massive Audi brakes" Well hello your brakes were stuffed that's why it didn't stop. There are several punters on the samba saying they have removed new or next to new standard plugs and fitted these and notice a difference. I believe you said yours were not that old. The other big issue is these people have done thousands of kms of testing for us! So safe to assume no holes in pistons or alike. I have attached an interesting pic below. That looks like three sparks to me. Greg E
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

From: eddie <bergodaz@ozemail.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 10:28 AM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
The fact that you saw a better spark at higher rpm's corresponds with the better performance I'm getting at higher rpm's. Glad I got some discussion going on this topic. Interesting to get different views on it. Looking forward to hearing opinions of anyone else who opt to use these plugs. Eddie.

--- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> They would have had to do a lot of testing to ensure the part was suitable. We are talking about a part that is manufacured externally to vw. It would cost them nothing to continue to use that part. When was it that 2.1 was released? 85? Which means development from '82-'83 I guess. Too early I think for this technology on a commercial vehicle.
> You will notice that I mentioned the "posibility" of a multi spark event. I have had these plugs on a spark plug tester and at low rpms yes the spark tends to follow the "path of least resistance" theory. But at high rpm you start to get the spark spitting between electrodes. I am no electrical engineer and can not explain this but I have seen it with my own eyes. Greg E
>  
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.
>
> They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.
>
> Phill
>
>
>
> > greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
> >
> > They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> > the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> > engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> > They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> > old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> > performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> > little effort into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> > of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
> >
> > 
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> > They are a standard part.
> > Phill
> >
> > > eddie <mailto:bergodaz%40ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> > Eddie.
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > > <leslieharris@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eddie,
> > > >
> > > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > > technology
> > > > has leaped ahead in the last decade.  Chamber shape and induction
> > > manifold
> > > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > > firing
> > > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > > advantageous.
> > > >
> > > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> > measure
> > > for
> > > > safety reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _____
> > > >
> > > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > eddie
> > > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > > spark
> > > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > > performance.
> > > >
> >   
> >         
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

 

Change of subject;

I was at Steve Muller today and he informed me that he wants to sell his dual cab and camper, the dual cab will have a 2-5l  motor ,rear diff lock and decoupler, he said that the camper was fully tricked out, so if any one is interested please contact Steve @ Muller Volkswagen for more details.

Bob Dale.

 

From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eddie
Sent: Saturday, 6 October 2012 9:35 AM
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Wbx spark plugs

 

 

Hi to all , just thought I'd share this bit of info with you. NGK 6bpet triple ground spark plugs fit in our vans and after a week of running them have to agree with all the Americans who have been raving about the performance boost they give the Wbxer. Credit to Greg E who put me on to them but hasn't yet tried them as he is still putting his engine together. Lots of info on the Samba about them. I bought mine from an E-Bay seller based in the UK . Price to my letterbox was $58 for ten. Enjoy reading the reviews and give them a go. Eddie .

Just for the record the twin spark (twin plug) design employed by Alfa Romeo in some of it's engines, does not fire it's 2 plugs at exactly the same time. 
 
Ian
 
 
The nissan twin spark engines did the same thing. The system was used mostly to reduce emissions. Greg E

From: Ian Fairley <ian@ianfairley.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 10:15 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Just for the record the twin spark (twin plug) design employed by Alfa Romeo in some of it's engines, does not fire it's 2 plugs at exactly the same time. 
 
Ian
 
 
 

The reduction in emissions was achieved by the more complete combustion of the fuel.  The more complete combustion was achieved by improving the flame propagation through the use of two spark points.  The slight difference in spark point ignited the slow side of the combustion chamber first and the faster side second.  The improvement in earlier engines could be substantial.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greg esposito
Sent: 10 October 2012 08:06
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

The Nissan twin spark engines did the same thing. The system was used mostly to reduce emissions. Greg E

 

From: Ian Fairley <ian@ianfairley.com>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 10:15 PM
Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

Just for the record the twin spark (twin plug) design employed by Alfa Romeo in some of it's engines, does not fire it's 2 plugs at exactly the same time. 

 

Ian

 

 

 

Eddie, Greg,

I have been following this discussion with great interest, anything to make it run better.
The NGK catalogue list a BR7EIX  IRIDIUM spark plug for the MV 2.1, but very expensive.
Has anyone tried these plugs?

Cheers,

Theo


At 10:28 AM 9/10/2012, you wrote:
 

The fact that you saw a better spark at higher rpm's corresponds with the better performance I'm getting at higher rpm's. Glad I got some discussion going on this topic. Interesting to get different views on it. Looking forward to hearing opinions of anyone else who opt to use these plugs. Eddie.

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> They would have had to do a lot of testing to ensure the part was suitable. We are talking about a part that is manufacured externally to vw. It would cost them nothing to continue to use that part. When was it that 2.1 was released? 85? Which means development from '82-'83 I guess. Too early I think for this technology on a commercial vehicle.
> You will notice that I mentioned the "posibility" of a multi spark event. I have had these plugs on a spark plug tester and at low rpms yes the spark tends to follow the "path of least resistance" theory. But at high rpm you start to get the spark spitting between electrodes. I am no electrical engineer and can not explain this but I have seen it with my own eyes. Greg E
> Â
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.
>
> They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.
>
> Phill
>
>
>
> > greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
> >
> > They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> > the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> > engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> > They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> > old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> > performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> > little effort into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> > of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
> >
> > 
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> > To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> > They are a standard part.
> > Phill
> >
> > > eddie < mailto:bergodaz%40ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> > Eddie.
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > > <leslieharris@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eddie,
> > > >
> > > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > > technology
> > > > has leaped ahead in the last decade.  Chamber shape and induction
> > > manifold
> > > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > > firing
> > > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > > advantageous.
> > > >
> > > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> > measure
> > > for
> > > > safety reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _____
> > > >
> > > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > [ mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > eddie
> > > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > > spark
> > > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > > performance.
> > > >
> >   
> >        ÂÂÂ
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


I couldn't answer why Theo, but they actually will make it run worse. They make the idle spluttery.

From: Theo Weiss <teows@melbpc.org.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Eddie, Greg,

I have been following this discussion with great interest, anything to make it run better.
The NGK catalogue list a BR7EIX  IRIDIUM spark plug for the MV 2.1, but very expensive.
Has anyone tried these plugs?

Cheers,

Theo


At 10:28 AM 9/10/2012, you wrote:
 

The fact that you saw a better spark at higher rpm's corresponds with the better performance I'm getting at higher rpm's. Glad I got some discussion going on this topic. Interesting to get different views on it. Looking forward to hearing opinions of anyone else who opt to use these plugs. Eddie.

--- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> They would have had to do a lot of testing to ensure the part was suitable. We are talking about a part that is manufacured externally to vw. It would cost them nothing to continue to use that part. When was it that 2.1 was released? 85? Which means development from '82-'83 I guess. Too early I think for this technology on a commercial vehicle.
> You will notice that I mentioned the "posibility" of a multi spark event. I have had these plugs on a spark plug tester and at low rpms yes the spark tends to follow the "path of least resistance" theory. But at high rpm you start to get the spark spitting between electrodes. I am no electrical engineer and can not explain this but I have seen it with my own eyes. Greg E
> Â
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.
>
> They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.
>
> Phill
>
>
>
> > greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
> >
> > They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> > the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> > engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> > They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> > old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> > performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> > little effort into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> > of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
> >
> > 
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> > They are a standard part.
> > Phill
> >
> > > eddie <mailto:bergodaz@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> > Eddie.
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > > <leslieharris@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eddie,
> > > >
> > > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > > technology
> > > > has leaped ahead in the last decade.  Chamber shape and induction
> > > manifold
> > > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > > firing
> > > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > > advantageous.
> > > >
> > > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> > measure
> > > for
> > > > safety reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _____
> > > >
> > > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > eddie
> > > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > > spark
> > > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > > performance.
> > > >
> >   
> >        ÂÂÂ
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Guys
Could be that the extra sparks reduce the intensity of the arcing multiple sparks rather than one stronger , causing a reduced burn ?
Regards Pete























































































>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> Â Â http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


If you use a better match to light the barbeque, do the sausages cook faster?



> Peter Wilson <peterw1000@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Guys
>
> Could be that the extra sparks reduce the intensity of the arcing
> multiple sparks rather than one stronger , causing a reduced burn ?
>
>
> Regards Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > �� �� http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> >
> > **
> > ****
> >
> >
> >
Greg,

Thanks for that info, I will order a set of BP6ET plugs and see if there is a difference.

Cheers,
Theo


At 07:22 PM 11/10/2012, you wrote:
 

I couldn't answer why Theo, but they actually will make it run worse. They make the idle spluttery.

From: Theo Weiss <teows@melbpc.org.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Eddie, Greg,

I have been following this discussion with great interest, anything to make it run better.
The NGK catalogue list a BR7EIX  IRIDIUM spark plug for the MV 2.1, but very expensive.
Has anyone tried these plugs?

Cheers,

Theo


At 10:28 AM 9/10/2012, you wrote:
 

The fact that you saw a better spark at higher rpm's corresponds with the better performance I'm getting at higher rpm's. Glad I got some discussion going on this topic. Interesting to get different views on it. Looking forward to hearing opinions of anyone else who opt to use these plugs. Eddie.

--- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com, greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
>
> They would have had to do a lot of testing to ensure the part was suitable. We are talking about a part that is manufacured externally to vw. It would cost them nothing to continue to use that part. When was it that 2.1 was released? 85? Which means development from '82-'83 I guess. Too early I think for this technology on a commercial vehicle.
> You will notice that I mentioned the "posibility" of a multi spark event. I have had these plugs on a spark plug tester and at low rpms yes the spark tends to follow the "path of least resistance" theory. But at high rpm you start to get the spark spitting between electrodes. I am no electrical engineer and can not explain this but I have seen it with my own eyes. Greg E
> Â
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 9:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
> The T4 had them and many Audis in the 80s.
>
> They could have deleted another part in stock if they were suitable. VW often do this to older models.
>
> Phill
>
>
>
> > greg esposito <gregespo73@...> wrote:
> >
> > They weren't around in the wbx days, I first saw them on Seat cars in
> > the '90s. Vw nor any other car manufacturer will go back in time and re
> > engineer a car no longer in production for the benefit of old customers.
> > They will always concentrate on making the new product better than the
> > old to convert these old customers. The bigger the gap in
> > performance/technology the better. Vw would have been putting very
> > little effort into the T3 by probably '87, T4 would have been on the tip
> > of every ones tongue by then. Greg E
> >
> > 
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > 
> > ÂÂÂ Â
> > 
> > If triple electrode plugs were a WBX improvement, wouldn't VW use them?
> > They are a standard part.
> > Phill
> >
> > > eddie < mailto:bergodaz@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > Flame propagation you say Les. Might have to read up on that one.
> > Eddie.
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, "Les Harris"
> > > <leslieharris@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Eddie,
> > > >
> > > > Twin plugs are more to do with flame propagation but induction
> > > technology
> > > > has leaped ahead in the last decade.  Chamber shape and induction
> > > manifold
> > > > shape, along with a highly precise and an infinitely programmable
> > > firing
> > > > point have moved well beyond the designs that once made twin plugs
> > > > advantageous.
> > > >
> > > > Many aircraft engines have twin plugs but that is a redundancy
> > measure
> > > for
> > > > safety reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Les
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _____
> > > >
> > > > From: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [ mailto:mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > eddie
> > > > Sent: 08 October 2012 21:11
> > > > To: mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
> > > > Phill, something to think about .Alfa Romeos have quite a few twin
> > > spark
> > > > engines getting around. It may be that more spark = better
> > > performance.
> > > >
> >   
> >        ÂÂÂ
r> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Depends how thick the sausage the sausages are .
Have you ever used a spark plug testing unit Phil?
Best Regards Pete

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, plander@... wrote:
>
> If you use a better match to light the barbeque, do the sausages cook faster?
>
>
>
> > Peter Wilson <peterw1000@...> wrote:
> >
> > Guys
> >
> > Could be that the extra sparks reduce the intensity of the arcing
> > multiple sparks rather than one stronger , causing a reduced burn ?
> >
> >
> > Regards Pete
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â Â http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > >
> > > **
> > > ****
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
Yes



> Anette <peterw1000@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Depends how thick the sausage the sausages are .
> Have you ever used a spark plug testing unit Phil?
> Best Regards Pete
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, plander@... wrote:
> >
> > If you use a better match to light the barbeque, do the sausages cook
> faster?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Peter Wilson <peterw1000@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Guys
> > >
> > > Could be that the extra sparks reduce the intensity of the arcing
> > > multiple sparks rather than one stronger , causing a reduced burn ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards Pete
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ����� ����� http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > **
> > > > ****
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it than lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but not neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
Best Regards Pete
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <plander@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Yes



> Anette <peterw1000@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Depends how thick the sausage the sausages are .
> Have you ever used a spark plug testing unit Phil?
> Best Regards Pete
>
> --- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, plander@... wrote:
> >
> > If you use a better match to light the barbeque, do the sausages cook
> faster?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Peter Wilson <peterw1000@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Guys
> > >
> > > Could be that the extra sparks reduce the intensity of the arcing
> > > multiple sparks rather than one stronger , causing a reduced burn ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards Pete
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â Â http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > **
> > > > ****
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >


------------------------------------

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The science of ignition is not within my field of expertise but I have had conversations with a number of people for whom this is their main field.  What comes through very clearly it that a most remarkable number of things happen every 0.0001 of a second inside the combustion chamber.  And that’s in a petrol engine.  (What goes on inside a Formula1 engine must be outright spectacular!)  Aircraft jet engines are just as complicated.  Even diesel ignition is much more complicated than I ever could have imagined.

Les


From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Wilson
Sent: 12 October 2012 12:29
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it than lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?

Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies  but not neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept

 

Best Regards Pete

_

Good find Pete.

That agrees with everything that I have said.

Only sparks to one electrode etc.

The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case.

Phill


> Peter Wilson <peterw1000@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it
> than
> lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
> Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but
> not
> neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related
>
> Best Regards Pete
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <plander@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
In a syncro it only happens about 2,000 times per minute on the motorway.

Not really F1 technology required.

Phill



> Les Harris <leslieharris@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> The science of ignition is not within my field of expertise but I have
> had
> conversations with a number of people for whom this is their main field.
> What comes through very clearly it that a most remarkable number of
> things
> happen every 0.0001 of a second inside the combustion chamber. And
> that's
> in a petrol engine. (What goes on inside a Formula1 engine must be
> outright
> spectacular!) Aircraft jet engines are just as complicated. Even
> diesel
> ignition is much more complicated than I ever could have imagined.
>
> Les
>
> _____
>
> From: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Wilson
> Sent: 12 October 2012 12:29
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
>
>
> Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it
> than
> lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
>
> Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but
> not
> neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related>
> &feature=related
>
>
>
> Best Regards Pete
>
> _