Wbx spark plugs

41
I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete.

That agrees with everything that I have said.

Only sparks to one electrode etc.

The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case.

Phill

> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it
> than
> lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
> Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but
> not
> neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related
>
> Best Regards Pete
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
 
42
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper into the cylinder. Could be true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat rating (6) to the original Bosch W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to tell  I guess is to do as suggested ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete.

That agrees with everything that I have said.

Only sparks to one electrode etc.

The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case.

Phill

> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it
> than
> lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
> Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but
> not
> neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related
>
> Best Regards Pete
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
 

43
Just added the red bit, more fuel to the fire .........
Ken

From: unclekenz@hotmail.com
To: syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 16:15:04 +1100

All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper into the cylinder. Could be true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
For those who are accepting of the T3 communities unofficially sanctioned above BP6ES, then NGK suggests their newer iteration equivalent in the Iridium BPR6EIX.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat rating (6) to the original Bosch W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to tell  I guess is to do as suggested ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete.

That agrees with everything that I have said.

Only sparks to one electrode etc.

The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case.

Phill

> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it
> than
> lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
> Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but
> not
> neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related
>
> Best Regards Pete
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
 

44
Ken, first of all the heat ranges of different brands of plugs are not directly related. You need to use the cross referance chart to work from one brand to another. It is quite common for a optional high power plug to be a heat range under standard.
Just to confuse matters I will tell you this. About a year ago the ngk Aust site listed the b6es for the MV and the bp6es for the DJ (which we never officially got). I look now and they rightly only mention the MV. Interestingly the american site lists br6es for the MV. I don't think suppression plugs are needed on a T3, if nothing else the radio is a long way from the engine!
Now here is the clinker. Just checked Ngk UK and they list the BP6ET for the DJ and the standard plug for the MV.
I don't think anyone (plug manufacturer or vw) are ever going to go back and suggest using any projector plug on the MV. I suspect it got those plugs as it was designated as a low emission - poor fuel engine.
Anywho Ken if my memory serves me correctly you have dj pistons. So fitting the BP6ET must look like an option now?
Do you know what is in it now? Greg E
 
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in
 the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper into the cylinder. Could be
 true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat rating (6) to the original Bosch
 W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to tell  I guess is to do as suggested
 ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete. That agrees with everything that I have said. Only sparks to one electrode etc. The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case. Phill
> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote: > > Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it > than > lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is? > Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but > not > neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related > > Best Regards Pete > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote: >
 
45
Nice bit of research there Ken. I think we could go over all the facts & figures & still not come up with any conclusions. My triple pronged plugs have given me about an extra 10 kph in third gear(gave it a boot full on the way home tonight). With any other plugs there was no use in revving the thing that hard , just had no pull at high rpm. I know the wbx isn't a high revving donk but it's nice to have that bit extra there when you need it.Yes I have the DJ pistons and an aftermarket cam but from all reports it seems that older, stock engines benefit the most from these plugs. All I can suggest is that at about $25 , it's probably worth a go.
Phil, from what I can gather you're not convinced & maybe your vans' ignition systems might be in better order than most.I understand that your syncro has pretty low kms.
Thought I might throw one more spanner into this dicussion. Some of the aftermarket ignition systems I've been reading about create two sparks per stroke.(MSD I think stands for multi spark discharge) What would this do? Eddie.

--- In Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com, Ken Garratt <unclekenz@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> All,Some more discourse.FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...
> Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
> Bentley Book FLAPS
> Autolite 403
> Beru 14L-7CU
> 14L-7C
> Bosch W7CCO W7CCO
> W7DTC <3-pronged>
> Champion N288 N11YC
> N5C <replaced N288>
> NGK BR6ES
> BP6ET <3-pronged>Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txtComments:To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in the 1980s.According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper into the cylinder. Could be true, then maybe its not. Who knows.NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat rating (6) to the original Bosch W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to tell I guess is to do as suggested ... give them a try.Rocket science all this.Cheers.Ken
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> From: gregespo73@...
> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners
> removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E
> From: "plander@..." <plander@...>
> To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Good find Pete.
>
>
>
> That agrees with everything that I have said.
>
>
>
> Only sparks to one electrode etc.
>
>
>
> The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case.
>
>
>
> Phill
>
>
>
> > Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it
>
> > than
>
> > lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is?
>
> > Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but
>
> > not
>
> > neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept
>
> >
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related
>
> >
>
> > Best Regards Pete
>
> > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
>
46
Greg,
I didn't just pluck those plug version comparisons out of the air ... I already did as you suggested I should do, used available plug manufacturer equivalence wizards to arrive at my findings. Which means manufacturers are supposedly comparing apples with apples but arriving at plug equivalents that are dissimilar in terms of heat range and/or resistance specs. Hence user confusion.

The projecting type plug BP6ET has been discussed here in Oz and US forums in the past and more or less accepted as an alternative. Even a local to me VW mechanic was using them as a matter of course in MV T3s.

Anyone recently bought Bosch W7CC0 plugs? I've somehow had the idea they'd become NLA, the following Samba thread talks about availability or not and where Bosch plugs are made ...

But surprise surprise, this eBayer seller claims to have them ...
I wonder if the plugs he supplies ARE in fact made in Germany? He could be using an ancient photo. Perchance India?

No Greg, my WBX2.1 is stock MV, must be someone else with DJ parts onboard.
So in conclusion, yes I agree, when it comes to plugs, the waters remain turbulently muddy.

Theo, if you are "deploying" your modded WBX2.1, perhaps you are the one who would definitely gain the extra benefits from the BP6ETs. We expect a full report in due course! HA!
Cheers.
Ken  
 

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:16:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

Ken, first of all the heat ranges of different brands of plugs are not directly related. You need to use the cross referance chart to work from one brand to another. It is quite common for a optional high power plug to be a heat range under standard.
Just to confuse matters I will tell you this. About a year ago the ngk Aust site listed the b6es for the MV and the bp6es for the DJ (which we never officially got). I look now and they rightly only mention the MV. Interestingly the american site lists br6es for the MV. I don't think suppression plugs are needed on a T3, if nothing else the radio is a long way from the engine!
Now here is the clinker. Just checked Ngk UK and they list the BP6ET for the DJ and the standard plug for the MV.
I don't think anyone (plug manufacturer or vw) are ever going to go back and suggest using any projector plug on the MV. I suspect it got those plugs as it was designated as a low emission - poor fuel engine.
Anywho Ken if my memory serves me correctly you have dj pistons. So fitting the BP6ET must look like an option now?
Do you know what is in it now? Greg E
 
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in
 the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper into the cylinder. Could be
 true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat rating (6) to the original Bosch
 W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to tell  I guess is to do as suggested
 ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete. That agrees with everything that I have said. Only sparks to one electrode etc. The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case. Phill
> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote: > > Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it > than > lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is? > Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but > not > neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related > > Best Regards Pete > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote: >
 

47
This is what I was talking about Ken
"According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?"
The Bosch is not cooler nor the ngk hotter. They are just the closest equivalent. Cross reference can sometimes get tricky due to the heat ranges being separated at differing points on the scale causing anomalies between manufacturers. In this case I think you will find it a "two way street"and both maufacturers agree they are the same heat range. Greg E

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Greg,
I didn't just pluck those plug version comparisons out of the air ... I already did as you suggested I should do, used available plug manufacturer equivalence wizards to arrive at my findings. Which means manufacturers are supposedly comparing apples with apples but arriving at plug equivalents that are dissimilar in terms of heat range and/or resistance specs. Hence user confusion.

The projecting type plug BP6ET has been discussed here in Oz and US forums in the past and more or less accepted as an alternative. Even a local to me VW mechanic was using them as a matter of course in MV T3s.

Anyone recently bought Bosch W7CC0 plugs? I've somehow had the idea they'd become NLA, the following Samba thread talks about availability or not and where Bosch plugs are made ...

But surprise surprise, this eBayer seller claims to have them ...
I wonder if the plugs he supplies ARE in fact made in Germany? He could be using an ancient photo. Perchance India?

No Greg, my WBX2.1 is stock MV, must be someone else with DJ parts onboard.
So in conclusion, yes I agree, when it comes to plugs, the waters remain turbulently muddy.

Theo, if you are "deploying" your modded WBX2.1, perhaps you are the one who would definitely gain the extra benefits from the BP6ETs. We expect a full report in due course! HA!
Cheers.
Ken  
 
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:16:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
Ken, first of all the heat ranges of different brands of plugs are not directly related. You need to use the cross referance chart to work from one brand to another. It is quite common for a optional high power plug to be a heat range under standard.
Just to confuse matters I will tell you this. About a year ago the ngk Aust site listed the b6es for the MV and the bp6es for the DJ (which we never officially got). I look now and they rightly only mention the MV. Interestingly the american site lists br6es for the MV. I don't think suppression plugs are needed on a T3, if nothing else the radio is a long way from the engine!
Now here is the clinker. Just checked Ngk UK and they list the BP6ET for the DJ and the standard plug for the MV.
I don't think anyone (plug manufacturer or vw) are ever going to go back and suggest using any projector plug on the MV. I suspect it got those plugs as it was designated as a low emission - poor fuel engine.
Anywho Ken if my memory serves me correctly you have dj pistons. So fitting the BP6ET must look like an option now?
Do you know what is in it now? Greg E
 
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant
 motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in
 the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper
 into the cylinder. Could be
 true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat
 rating (6) to the original Bosch
 W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to
 tell  I guess is to do as suggested
 ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete. That agrees with everything that I have said. Only sparks to one electrode etc. The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case. Phill
> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote: > > Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it > than > lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is? > Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but > not > neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related > > Best Regards Pete > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote: >
 
 
48
Greg,
Hi Greg,
Ok good, fair enough.

About the BP6ETs, so far I'm having trouble finding a spec sheet for these anywhere. Anyone got a link to one? Also what NGK group type are these in? Can't find that either.

Interesting though what this person experienced with the centre electrodes wearing from circular toward triangular shape ...
Cheers.
Ken



To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
From: gregespo73@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:29:09 -0700
Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs

 

This is what I was talking about Ken
"According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?"
The Bosch is not cooler nor the ngk hotter. They are just the closest equivalent. Cross reference can sometimes get tricky due to the heat ranges being separated at differing points on the scale causing anomalies between manufacturers. In this case I think you will find it a "two way street"and both maufacturers agree they are the same heat range. Greg E

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Greg,
I didn't just pluck those plug version comparisons out of the air ... I already did as you suggested I should do, used available plug manufacturer equivalence wizards to arrive at my findings. Which means manufacturers are supposedly comparing apples with apples but arriving at plug equivalents that are dissimilar in terms of heat range and/or resistance specs. Hence user confusion.

The projecting type plug BP6ET has been discussed here in Oz and US forums in the past and more or less accepted as an alternative. Even a local to me VW mechanic was using them as a matter of course in MV T3s.

Anyone recently bought Bosch W7CC0 plugs? I've somehow had the idea they'd become NLA, the following Samba thread talks about availability or not and where Bosch plugs are made ...

But surprise surprise, this eBayer seller claims to have them ...
I wonder if the plugs he supplies ARE in fact made in Germany? He could be using an ancient photo. Perchance India?

No Greg, my WBX2.1 is stock MV, must be someone else with DJ parts onboard.
So in conclusion, yes I agree, when it comes to plugs, the waters remain turbulently muddy.

Theo, if you are "deploying" your modded WBX2.1, perhaps you are the one who would definitely gain the extra benefits from the BP6ETs. We expect a full report in due course! HA!
Cheers.
Ken  
 
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:16:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
Ken, first of all the heat ranges of different brands of plugs are not directly related. You need to use the cross referance chart to work from one brand to another. It is quite common for a optional high power plug to be a heat range under standard.
Just to confuse matters I will tell you this. About a year ago the ngk Aust site listed the b6es for the MV and the bp6es for the DJ (which we never officially got). I look now and they rightly only mention the MV. Interestingly the american site lists br6es for the MV. I don't think suppression plugs are needed on a T3, if nothing else the radio is a long way from the engine!
Now here is the clinker. Just checked Ngk UK and they list the BP6ET for the DJ and the standard plug for the MV.
I don't think anyone (plug manufacturer or vw) are ever going to go back and suggest using any projector plug on the MV. I suspect it got those plugs as it was designated as a low emission - poor fuel engine.
Anywho Ken if my memory serves me correctly you have dj pistons. So fitting the BP6ET must look like an option now?
Do you know what is in it now? Greg E
 
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant
 motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in
 the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper
 into the cylinder. Could be
 true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat
 rating (6) to the original Bosch
 W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to
 tell  I guess is to do as suggested
 ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete. That agrees with everything that I have said. Only sparks to one electrode etc. The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case. Phill
> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote: > > Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it > than > lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is? > Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but > not > neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related > > Best Regards Pete > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote: >
 
 

49
Hi Ken. As all the responses suggest that plug wear is normal at 16,000kms and they are not carbon fouled as one guy suggests. That is picture perfect plug condition for mileage.
To my knowledge plug manufacturers don't do individual spec sheets, they just explain their numbering system, as  below.
Hope this helps. Greg E
 
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 10:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Greg,
Hi Greg,
Ok good, fair enough.

About the BP6ETs, so far I'm having trouble finding a spec sheet for these anywhere. Anyone got a link to one? Also what NGK group type are these in? Can't find that either.

Interesting though what this person experienced with the centre electrodes wearing from circular toward triangular shape ...
Cheers.
Ken

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:29:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
This is what I was talking about Ken
"According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?"
The Bosch is not cooler nor the ngk hotter. They are just the closest equivalent. Cross reference can sometimes get tricky due to the heat ranges being separated at differing points on the scale causing anomalies between manufacturers. In this case I think you will find it a "two way street"and both maufacturers agree they are the same heat range. Greg E

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Greg,
I didn't just pluck those plug version comparisons out of the air ... I already did as you suggested I should do, used available plug manufacturer equivalence wizards to arrive at my findings. Which means manufacturers are supposedly comparing apples with apples but arriving at plug equivalents that are dissimilar in terms of heat range and/or resistance specs. Hence user confusion.

The projecting type plug BP6ET has been discussed here in Oz and US forums in the past and more or less accepted as an alternative. Even a local to me VW mechanic was using them as a matter of course in MV T3s.

Anyone recently bought Bosch W7CC0 plugs? I've somehow had the idea they'd become NLA, the following Samba thread talks about availability or not and where Bosch plugs are made ...

But surprise surprise, this eBayer seller claims to have them ...
I wonder if the plugs he supplies ARE in fact made in Germany? He could be using an ancient photo. Perchance India?

No Greg, my WBX2.1 is stock MV, must be someone else with DJ parts onboard.
So in conclusion, yes I agree, when it comes to plugs, the waters remain turbulently muddy.

Theo, if you are "deploying" your modded WBX2.1, perhaps you are the one who would definitely gain the extra benefits from the BP6ETs. We expect a full report in due course! HA!
Cheers.
Ken  
 
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:16:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
Ken, first of all the heat ranges of different brands of plugs are not directly related. You need to use the cross referance chart to work from one brand to another. It is quite common for a optional high power plug to be a heat range under standard.
Just to confuse matters I will tell you this. About a year ago the ngk Aust site listed the b6es for the MV and the bp6es for the DJ (which we never officially got). I look now and they rightly only mention the MV. Interestingly the american site lists br6es for the MV. I don't think suppression plugs are needed on a T3, if nothing else the radio is a long way from the engine!
Now here is the clinker. Just checked Ngk UK and they list the BP6ET for the DJ and the standard plug for the MV.
I don't think anyone (plug manufacturer or vw) are ever going to go back and suggest using any projector plug on the MV. I suspect it got those plugs as it was designated as a low emission - poor fuel engine.
Anywho Ken if my memory serves me correctly you have dj pistons. So fitting the BP6ET must look like an option now?
Do you know what is in it now? Greg E
 
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ...

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt
Comments:
To start at the start, the
 above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant
 motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in
 the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the
 more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper
 into the cylinder. Could be
 true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat
 rating (6) to the original Bosch
 W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service
 interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to
 tell  I guess is to do as suggested
 ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs  
I have to concede if ngk say there can only be one spark per pulse then that is the case. My test was obviously flawed. Back in approx '96 when I first came across these plugs I put one on the spark tester and set my SLR camera to 1/1000 of  a sec (its fastest setting). I got back the film from processing (remember that) and there were a couple of shots with more than one spark. I wouldn't have thought a tester could pulse faster than 1/1000 of a sec? Any way there are a lot of people raving about these plugs I can't image its all in there heads or they all have faulty ignition systems. One variable that is hard to make out is how many of these owners removed b6es as opposed to bp6es. I noticed a good improvement with the projector plug. The first thing they talk about in that clip is carbon fouling. This happens a lot at idle and I think is why most owners are reporting big improvements in idle quality. At the end of the day I would rather run BP6ET's for 20,000kms than BP6ES's whether there is an initial running improvement or not. Greg E

From: "plander@optusnet.com.au" <plander@optusnet.com.au>
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Good find Pete. That agrees with everything that I have said. Only sparks to one electrode etc. The only way that you may get an improvement with these is if your ignition system is not working properly and producing enough voltage to jump the gap. In a 20 year old system, this may be the case. Phill
> Peter Wilson <mailto:peterw1000%40gmail.com> wrote: > > Great phil, so you would understand that there is a little more to it > than > lighting your BBQ and how thick your sausage is? > Found this on tube could help explain some of the inconsistencies but > not > neccessarlly gospel just interesting concept > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53yfHLdn41k&feature=related > > Best Regards Pete > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02 AM, <mailto:plander%40optusnet.com.au> wrote: >
 
 
 
50
fwiw ...
I find that Waterboxer engines do not wear out spark plugs 'at all.'
Not even slightly.
I have given up, more or less, on multi-electode spark plugs.
( though I have a dozen good used ones to try if I want. )

I have put hundreds of BP6ES spark plugs in foreign cars with never any issue at all.
I forget if that is the extended tip one or not ..
I prefer a single electrode extended tip spark plug in a waterboxer.
I think NGK is an excellent brand, and have installed thousands probably, going back 3 or 4 decades.

But really..
I see a hundred different vanagons a year at least . I get them to run absolutely perfectly.
I rarely find worn spark plugs.
The ignition is so strong ....perhaps the combustion chamber shape is easy on spark plugs or whatever...
I just don't find them to wear much at all.
I 'might' re-gab one that's not worn much if the gap has grown a little.
If the electrodes are getting a little rounded off , then I figure they are gettin' tired..
but they still seem to work just perfectly anyway.

I tired to watch the multi-electrode video ...it was way slow to load, even at the lowest quality setting, so finally gave up.
In practice .........if there in the engine and working, I'll leave them there.
I personally have not found out they seem to work any better really.

I use platinum single electrode spark plugs sometimes for sure.
last comment ..
My 40 year old Mercedes car, 2.5 liter inline Six gasoline twin carbs.
That poor old car will foul single electrode plugs like the BP6ES very easily. ( I only fire the poor old thing about about once every two months for use around my yard ) ..
But ...if I use Subaru Legacy 2.2 spark plug wires ( the red OE ones )
and used subaru single electrode platinum spark plugs in it ..
those will not foul on a cold rich start-up.
Those plugs are the smaller 5/8ths inch hex size ..
but the threads are still 14mm like a standard plug .
If I was going to try any 'exotic' plug in a vanagon right now ..
I'd probably use those ...whatever a 1994 Subaru Legacy 2.2 takes in platinum ...
and maybe their wires too. Might have to switch back to the distributor cap ( 1984 T3 van and hundreds of other german cars ) that does not have the post in the dist cap where the wires plug in. I bet that would work well .

and really ...Waterboxer engines are real easy on spark plugs. I rarely have a problem at all. Got about 60 very useable spark plugs even.

it's all fun,
Scott
www.turbovans.com


On 10/12/2012 2:31 PM, greg esposito wrote:
Hi Ken. As all the responses suggest that plug wear is normal at 16,000kms and they are not carbon fouled as one guy suggests. That is picture perfect plug condition for mileage.
To my knowledge plug manufacturers don't do individual spec sheets, they just explain their numbering system, as below.
Hope this helps. Greg E
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 10:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
Greg,
Hi Greg,
Ok good, fair enough.

About the BP6ETs, so far I'm having trouble finding a spec sheet for these anywhere. Anyone got a link to one? Also what NGK group type are these in? Can't find that either.

Interesting though what this person experienced with the centre electrodes wearing from circular toward triangular shape ...
Cheers.
Ken

To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:29:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
This is what I was talking about Ken
"According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?"
The Bosch is not cooler nor the ngk hotter. They are just the closest equivalent. Cross reference can sometimes get tricky due to the heat ranges being separated at differing points on the scale causing anomalies between manufacturers. In this case I think you will find it a "two way street"and both maufacturers agree they are the same heat range. Greg E

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
Greg,
I didn't just pluck those plug version comparisons out of the air ... I already did as you suggested I should do, used available plug manufacturer equivalence wizards to arrive at my findings. Which means manufacturers are supposedly comparing apples with apples but arriving at plug equivalents that are dissimilar in terms of heat range and/or resistance specs. Hence user confusion.

The projecting type plug BP6ET has been discussed here in Oz and US forums in the past and more or less accepted as an alternative. Even a local to me VW mechanic was using them as a matter of course in MV T3s.

Anyone recently bought Bosch W7CC0 plugs? I've somehow had the idea they'd become NLA, the following Samba thread talks about availability or not and where Bosch plugs are made ...

But surprise surprise, this eBayer seller claims to have them ...
I wonder if the plugs he supplies ARE in fact made in Germany? He could be using an ancient photo. Perchance India?

No Greg, my WBX2.1 is stock MV, must be someone else with DJ parts onboard.
So in conclusion, yes I agree, when it comes to plugs, the waters remain turbulently muddy.

Theo, if you are "deploying" your modded WBX2.1, perhaps you are the one who would definitely gain the extra benefits from the BP6ETs. We expect a full report in due course! HA!
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:16:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
Ken, first of all the heat ranges of different brands of plugs are not directly related. You need to use the cross referance chart to work from one brand to another. It is quite common for a optional high power plug to be a heat range under standard.
Just to confuse matters I will tell you this. About a year ago the ngk Aust site listed the b6es for the MV and the bp6es for the DJ (which we never officially got). I look now and they rightly only mention the MV. Interestingly the american site lists br6es for the MV. I don't think suppression plugs are needed on a T3, if nothing else the radio is a long way from the engine!
Now here is the clinker. Just checked Ngk UK and they list the BP6ET for the DJ and the standard plug for the MV.
I don't think anyone (plug manufacturer or vw) are ever going to go back and suggest using any projector plug on the MV. I suspect it got those plugs as it was designated as a low emission - poor fuel engine.
Anywho Ken if my memory serves me correctly you have dj pistons. So fitting the BP6ET must look like an option now?
Do you know what is in it now? Greg E
From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
All,
Some more discourse.
FWIW, the following is straight out of gerry.vanagon files ... 

Water-cooled engine, code MV (1986-1991 Digifant models)
                           Bentley Book                   FLAPS
        Autolite                                                 403
        Beru              14L-7CU
                              14L-7C
        Bosch           W7CCO                           W7CCO
                                                                        W7DTC <3-pronged>
        Champion     N288                                N11YC
                               N5C <replaced N288>
        NGK                                                        BR6ES
                                                                        BP6ET <3-pronged>
Or else see it here, goto: http://gerry.vanagon.com/files/technical/spark-plugs-for-buses.txt 
Comments:
To start at the start, the
 above-listed top four plugs under the "Bentley Book" column are the ONLY original specified alternative approved plugs for the MV 2.1WBX Digifant
 motor. Seems NGK (nor Autolite) didn't get a VW guernsey back in
 the 1980s.
According to the now popularly supported NGK brand, the equivalent to a stock standard Bosch W7CC0 as above is a B6ES. Begs the question, if the Bosch is rated a cooler plug at 7, why does NGK recommend a hotter 6?
Also, what's with the NGK BR6ES listed above? That implies a plug with a built-in resistor (R). The genuine spark plug lead already has a resistor built in. Confusion here. Perhaps its a typo, maybe they meant BP6ES (Projecting) which has later become the
 more "fashionable" (ie not officially sanctioned by NGK) plug in the T3 community given its claimed "superior" performance due to the relocation of the spark further toward the combustible gasses deeper
 into the cylinder. Could be
 true, then maybe its not. Who knows.
NGK goes on to say that their own equivalent to their recommended stock standard B6ES but in a more recent iteration is the Iridium BR7EIX. Which also is a little confusing on two counts, it is specced differently in that it is a cooler plug (ie 7 instead of a 6, which incidentally brings it back into line with the original Bosch W7CC0 heat rating), plus it also has an unwanted R (resistor) designation as also mentioned previously for the BR6ES above. Well I'm confused, anyone else?
Lastly but not least, the original topic of this thread ie, the NGK BP6ET, does get a listing in the gerry.vanagon chart above. Again its a different heat
 rating (6) to the original Bosch
 W7CC0 plug (7) and is also a dissimilar Projecting (P), not to mention the triple ground electrodes. Yet it's not sanctioned by NGK for us, unlike B6ES or BR7EIX that are. Yet BR7EIX doesn't get a mention in the list above. 
Reading more on the NGK website, I get the impression these later iteration plugs are designed for newer generation motors as well for modified older motors. In other words for a stock standard MV 2.1WBX digifant motor, the only benefit will be a doubling or more of the service
 interval before the plugs need changing.
What I'm unable to comment on is the "seat of the pants" performance improvement discerned by Greg and Eddie with the BP6ET. Only way to
 tell  I guess is to do as suggested
 ... give them a try.
Rocket science all this.
Cheers.
Ken
To: Syncro_T3_Australia@yahoogroups.com From: gregespo73@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:05:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
51
Greg, Eddie & ALL,

Ok here's the NGK plug spec links I was searching for, listed below in similar order as per my previous research post .... 

All these plugs have copper cores.

See the four attributes chart shown at each plug link, maximum overall score 40 (maximum 10 score per attribute).
Total score listed against each plug below. Higher score is better.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B6ES, standard nickel plug recommended for the stock MV WBX2.1 digifant motor, total attributes score - 17/40

BR7EIX, new generation Iridium plug recommended replacement for the above B6ES, total attributes score - 23/40 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP6ES, standard nickel plug (projecting) adopted by T3 community (MV) and recommended (UK) for DJ, total score - 17/40  

BPR6EIX, new generation Iridium plug recommended replacement for the above BP6ES, total attributes score - 23/40

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP6ET, standard nickel plug (triple ground electrodes) adopted by T3 community, total attributes score - 15.5/40 

Begs the question, should one take NGK's own R&D and listed plug attributes with a grain of salt?

Cheers.
Ken
52
Ken, That web address is not NGK. Those scores are irrelevant Greg E

From: Ken Garratt <unclekenz@hotmail.com>
To: _T3_Australia forum Syncro <syncro_t3_australia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Syncro_T3_Australia] Re: Wbx spark plugs
 
Greg, Eddie & ALL,

Ok here's the NGK plug spec links I was searching for, listed below in similar order as per my previous research post .... 
All these plugs have copper cores.

See the four attributes chart shown at each plug link, maximum overall score 40 (maximum 10 score per attribute).
Total score listed against each plug below. Higher score is better.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B6ES, standard nickel plug recommended for the stock MV WBX2.1 digifant motor, total attributes score - 17/40

BR7EIX, new generation Iridium plug recommended replacement for the above B6ES, total attributes score - 23/40 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP6ES, standard nickel plug (projecting) adopted by T3 community (MV) and recommended (UK) for DJ, total score - 17/40  

BPR6EIX, new generation Iridium plug recommended replacement for the above BP6ES, total attributes score - 23/40

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP6ET, standard nickel plug (triple ground electrodes) adopted by T3 community, total attributes score - 15.5/40 

Begs the question, should one take NGK's own R&D and listed plug attributes with a grain of salt?

Cheers.
Ken
 
53

Interesting re-reading this old post. I have std bosch plugs in the Syncro, never had issues with them, so have not replaced them yet. But I do try the Beru multi tip plugs in the T2.
I can’t see a Beru equivalent tot he NGK’s in this thread. I might see how different they are to the spare set I have for the T2
Richard

ref

54

Hi Richard,

I have used those multi tip plugs before and they don’t provide any better performance but a slightly better or smoother idle.

55

Is that in the Subaru?

56

Hi Richard,

Actually it was in my previous white manual T3 2wd caravelle. I haven’t tried them in my current 2wd T3 auto.

Cheers,

Scott

57

Cheers Scott, interesting
Richard